# Person with gun. What are police supposed to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738 "2014-11-27T02:18:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/21 "2014-11-27T14:02:26Z")
First thing I thought when watching the video was. Why not a taser gun against a 12 year old? Even if the gun was real, just shooting a kid shouldn’t be the only alternative. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/22 "2014-11-27T14:04:04Z")
Side question for someone knowledgeable of police practices, from the Yahoo story linked earlier: > [@](#): > > Tomba told reporters at a news conference Wednesday that an FBI agent who was working a bank robbery detail nearby arrived within a few minutes and administered first aid to Tamir. Paramedics arrived three minutes later. The boy died on Sunday at a Cleveland hospital. Is there a reason that once shot, with the gun removed from proximity to the boy, the two police officers already on scene wouldn’t provide medical aid and instead that waited for a random federal agent to come by? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/23 "2014-11-27T14:15:38Z")
Open carry is legal in Ohio. Just an observation. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/24 "2014-11-27T14:22:01Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Open carry is legal in Ohio. Just an observation. For 12-year-olds? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/25 "2014-11-27T14:24:13Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > For 12-year-olds? Wait. Either the cops knew he was 12 and maybe should have been more circumspect, or they believed he was an adult and not violating the law. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/26 "2014-11-27T14:28:06Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > Pull a realistic fake gun on a cop and see what happens to you. I don’t care what your ethnic/racial background is. Please do this for science. [Pull Wii controller on a cop and see what happens to you.](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/georgia-teen-holding-wii-remote-shot-cops-front-door-family-lawyer-article-1.1619842) ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/27 "2014-11-27T14:42:56Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > [Pull Wii controller on a cop and see what happens to you.](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/georgia-teen-holding-wii-remote-shot-cops-front-door-family-lawyer-article-1.1619842) I would, but I don’t want to look too show-offy. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/28 "2014-11-27T15:00:39Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Wait. Either the cops knew he was 12 and maybe should have been more circumspect, or they believed he was an adult and not violating the law. Either they knew he was 12 and already breaking the law by carrying a gun or they knew he was over 18 and should realize that reaching for a gun when a cop has his gun pointed at you is fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/29 "2014-11-27T15:07:29Z")
**Moderating** It’s probably time to move this over to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/30 "2014-11-27T15:10:47Z")
Okay with the move, but I was asking a factual question and not looking for a debate. I was hoping someone with some familiarity with police procedures could enlighten us. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/31 "2014-11-27T16:06:11Z")
Not long ago a guy tried to hold up a Wendy’s here with a pellet gun. The police responded in minutes, before the guy with the pellet gun left the building. Three officers entered the building. The perpetrator drew down on the officers with the pellet gun and the officers fired back. They hit the perpetrator and also the sound guy from the show “Cops.” They also put two bullets through the window of a tanning salon a block away. The perpetrator and the sound guy from “Cops” later died at the hospital, which was two blocks from the Wendy’s location. [link to news story](http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-crew-member-killed-omaha-police-shooting/story?id=25155611) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/32 "2014-11-27T16:11:41Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > BS. The officer made the right decision, and the kid and the parents dug the grave. The parents are responsible for abandoning the kid in the park (I have no problem with kids playing on their own, but this kid evidently wasn’t mature enough), for not teaching the kid when and where to use a replica gun, for not teaching the kid gun safety, for allowing him to paint over the orange nozzle, and for not teaching him how to interact with cops. > > I know when I was twelve I absolutely knew gun safety and to do what the police did. If this kid didn’t then the parents shouldn’t have let him go off and play with fake guns by himself. Accidents happen but blaming the officers ignores the chain of bad decisions that took place before the situation got to where it did. Guns aren’t toys but this kid and his parents sure acted like they are. Yeah, the parents play a big role here. When I was a kid, probably around 9ish I got some Dick Tracy kit for Christmas from my aunt. One of the things in it was a fake gun. But it looked absolutely real. My parents told me that they would hold it for me. That was the last I ever saw of it. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/33 "2014-11-27T16:19:05Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > First thing I thought when watching the video was. Why not a taser gun against a 12 year old? Even if the gun was real, just shooting a kid shouldn’t be the only alternative. Taser(s) I believe are a one shot deal. A cop isn’t going to risk his life with the hopes he can make that shot - when he has another weapon that can do multiple tries per seconds. A taser only goes so far and a person with a weapon might be able to get off a shot in the mean time. Once a cop decides you might have a gun (or knife if with x distance) - you are done. The training takes over and they do not really think. I wasn’t there - I didn’t see it, but people seem to be under the impression that cops are/should be doing all this thinking to avoid shooting people that MIGHT not have a gun. Maybe they should, but they don’t if you make an aggressive move - and they don’t want to die. It is pretty well known (granted maybe not to a 12 year old) that you put up your hands when the police ask you to. Should you die for not doing that? Probably not just for that, but the fact is this is what happens. Pulling a gun on a cop - fake or not - is 99% of the time going to get you shot at. Oh - and I seriously doubt the police are going to be looking at the orange ring indicating it is fake (not if you are pointing it at them). If police don’t shoot if you have an orange plastic tip - well your going to start finding criminals painting their barrels that way. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/34 "2014-11-27T16:33:59Z")
Watch the video. Forewarning - it does show the boy being shot to death. > **[Video Shows Cleveland Officer Shot Boy in 2 Seconds (Published 2014)](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?_r=0&referrer=)** > > Tamir Rice, 12, was holding a fake “airsoft” gun when he was shot by the police on Saturday, the authorities said. He died the next day. None of what the cops said about the incident was true. Tactically, I cannot imagine how it was a good idea to pull up right next to the kid. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/35 "2014-11-27T16:34:16Z")
Nothing depresses me more than hearing “he deserved to die” as some sort of justification for the police officer’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/36 "2014-11-27T16:42:45Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Watch the video. Forewarning - it does show the boy being shot to death. > > [http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?\_r=0&referrer=](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?_r=0&referrer=) > > None of what the cops said about the incident was true. > > Tactically, I cannot imagine how it was a good idea to pull up right next to the kid. Jesus - I suck at watching those surveillance videos - I can’t even tell he was shot. I thought you were exaggerating when you said “right next to the kid” - wholly crap were you not. If the police really were worried about someone with a gun - I tend to agree it isn’t a good idea to pull up so close he can hit you with the gun if your window is down. I couldn’t tell what happened, but this isn’t what I thought it was going to be. As with all police shootings - this should obviously be investigated. ---
**Author:** ![qualityleashdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/9f8e36/32.png) [@qualityleashdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qualityleashdog)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/37 "2014-11-27T17:32:44Z")
> [@JKilez](#): > > Airsoft guns sold in the US would have an orange tip, but many people remove or color over them. Some of the Airsoft guns are far more realistic than the old BB gun pistols, both in size and in action. It would be very difficult to determine that an Airsoft pistol was a toy from a distance. Sometimes it is not obvious even when you are holding it. I’ve never messed with Airsoft, but have seen them for sale in flea markets. They did not have orange tips. Heading over to Wikipedia, I find that they are generally sold with orange, but there is no requirement to do so. _Local laws within the US may vary._ It also says the orange tip had been removed in this incident. Again, airsoft is not a “toy,” at least not in the sense that you would hand it to a child and forget about it. A BB gun, airsoft or even a regular gun is fine in the hands of a child, but must be accompanied by adult supervision and accountability. I’ll be interested to see where this airsoft gun came from. Did his parent give it to him, and tell him to scoot off to the park to shoot small animals? Did a retailer sell it to him? Did a gang member give it to him as a training piece? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/38 "2014-11-27T17:48:40Z")
> [@qualityleashdog](#): > > I’ve never messed with Airsoft, but have seen them for sale in flea markets. They did not have orange tips. Heading over to Wikipedia, I find that they are generally sold with orange, but there is no requirement to do so. _Local laws within the US may vary._ [From here.](http://gun.laws.com/airsoft-guns/airsoft-gun-laws) > [@](#): > > Federal airsoft gun laws are more lenient in regards to importation than our neighbor’s to the north. T **he only law in terms of importation in the United States requires that all airsoft guns transported within or imported into the country have barrels with a minimum 6mm wide blaze orange tip.** Local airsoft gun laws will vary based on whether or not the orange tip can be removed. A primary concern with airsoft guns is their uncanny resemblance to real firearms. This particular airsoft gun law has been implemented to avoid such confusion. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/39 "2014-11-27T19:00:54Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > Taser(s) I believe are a one shot deal. A cop isn’t going to risk his life with the hopes he can make that shot - when he has another weapon that can do multiple tries per seconds. A taser only goes so far and a person with a weapon might be able to get off a shot in the mean time. > > Once a cop decides you might have a gun (or knife if with x distance) - you are done. The training takes over and they do not really think. > > I wasn’t there - I didn’t see it, but people seem to be under the impression that cops are/should be doing all this thinking to avoid shooting people that MIGHT not have a gun. Maybe they should, but they don’t if you make an aggressive move - and they don’t want to die. > > It is pretty well known (granted maybe not to a 12 year old) that you put up your hands when the police ask you to. Should you die for not doing that? Probably not just for that, but the fact is this is what happens. > > Pulling a gun on a cop - fake or not - is 99% of the time going to get you shot at. > > Oh - and I seriously doubt the police are going to be looking at the orange ring indicating it is fake (not if you are pointing it at them). > > If police don’t shoot if you have an orange plastic tip - well your going to start finding criminals painting their barrels that way. To back up **DataX** , the president of the Cleveland Police Patrolman’s Association said an officer taking a Taser out when they believe there could be a person with a gun puts the officer at risk. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/40 "2014-11-27T19:43:39Z")
To my mind - and speaking as one who is generally willing to give cops the benefit of the doubt, having to make split-second decisions - if the shooting shown in that video is “justifiable” according to police training, then police training is putting the public at an unacceptable level of risk. To my mind, it would not be acceptable had the gun been real. The police account was that they pulled up, one officer shouted three times at the kid to put his hands up as the kid advanced towards the car, then the other shot him when the kid put his hand to his waistband (holding the gun replica). Looking at the video, this cannot be true. The car pulls up, the officer gets out and shoots the kid within, at most, two seconds, from very short range. The officers do not have time to shout at the Kid three times. The kid turns towards the car but does not advance towards it. I cannot see the kid reaching, but that may have happened - the video quality isn’t good enough for me to tell. Aside from their account, which is as I note not believable, the actual events demonstrated on the video show the police too willing to place their own safety over that of the public. There was no attempt whatsoever made to ascertain the situation, to defuse the situation, or even to communicate with the kid in any meaningful way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738.md?page=3)