# Person with gun. What are police supposed to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738 "2014-11-27T02:18:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/101 "2014-11-28T17:01:55Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > I’m not sure why people think tasers are a good weapon in this circumstance. > > Tasers are more for situations where a cop thinks you might pull something on him and has time to pull his first (before you do anything at all). I’m no expert on the topic, but my guess is also they are more likely to use one when there are multiple officers - so the cop with the taser might try and use it first when it looks like you might be going for something. But his buddy is going to shoot your ass as soon as you get to the point where you might be able to shoot. Multiple officers is exactly the situation we have here: Let us assume the first officer shoots the taser instead of firing the gun and has the second officer holds the gun on the kid. And note that the officers are wearing body armor. Where exactly is the danger to the officers? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/102 "2014-11-28T17:09:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How close, in feet, should the police have been to the suspect upon arrival? Far enough so as their judgement isnt to **immediatly** shoot this child down. Barring that, at their respective houses. Quite frankly such an efficient, on-arrival, execution shouldn’t be allowed. That kid could’ve had a banana for all these cops knew. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/103 "2014-11-28T17:11:04Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Far enough so as their judgement isnt to **immediatly** shoot this child down. Barring that, at their respective houses. > > Quite frankly such an efficient, on-arrival, execution shouldn’t be allowed. That kid could’ve had a banana for all these cops knew. The caller to 911 stated he had a gun and was pointing it at people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/104 "2014-11-28T17:13:04Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The caller to 911 stated he had a gun and was pointing it at people. Is that all the caller said? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/105 "2014-11-28T17:13:33Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The caller to 911 stated he had a gun and was pointing it at people. but that was inncorrect no? What if wasn’t even in the ballpark of gun. An Apple, or Wii remote… Such a quickness to shoot on arrival shouldn’t be possible. Hell let’s go another route and say the children had a nuclear rocket launcher. I still wouldn’t see why an on-arrival shooting like that is allowed. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/106 "2014-11-28T17:38:47Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > but that was inncorrect no? What if wasn’t even in the ballpark of gun. An Apple, or Wii remote… Such a quickness to shoot on arrival shouldn’t be possible. > > Hell let’s go another route and say the children had a nuclear rocket launcher. I still wouldn’t see why an on-arrival shooting like that is allowed. As far as anyone could tell, it was a real gun. And many areas treat airsoft as real firearms. [Beretta M92](http://www.beretta.com/assets/0/15/DimGalleryLarge/92fs_zoom002.jpg) [Airsoft M92](http://www.popularairsoft.com/files/images/KG11HK-1L.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/107 "2014-11-28T17:43:16Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > As far as anyone could tell, it was a real gun. And many areas treat airsoft as real firearms. > [Beretta M92](http://www.beretta.com/assets/0/15/DimGalleryLarge/92fs_zoom002.jpg) > [Airsoft M92](http://www.popularairsoft.com/files/images/KG11HK-1L.jpg) And when they treat them like real firearms, do they act as speedily and recklessly as the officers we are discussing in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/108 "2014-11-28T17:49:10Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The caller to 911 stated he had a gun and was pointing it at people. …and that he was probably a juvenile and that it was probably a fake gun. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/109 "2014-11-28T18:04:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Still, you must have some idea of the actual distance described by “Close enough to communicate with the suspect, but not so close as to require an instant deadly response should the suspect not instantly react to their (alleged) orders.” What is that distance? I assume it would vary with the situation. Determining that distance would, I again assume, be part of the calm, clear-headed “situational analysis” that the policing expert quoted upthread appears to be requesting cops undertake, right? Whatever that distance may be, I know one thing - the cops in that video were under it. In my opinion at least, the video does not depict cops acting with cool professionalism, after undertaking a calm, unemotional, rational analysis of the threat posed (by a kid possibly armed with a gun sitting by himself in a gazebo in a deserted playground). Rather, it depicts cops rushing in, almost literally going off half-cocked. Pretty well every example of what the policing expert in the article states cops ought _not_ to do, they do. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/110 "2014-11-28T18:10:05Z")
Unfortunately the police officers didn’t even give Tamir first aid after shooting him. A detective and an FBI agent who arrived on scene 4 minutes later did though. Another bad decision. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/111 "2014-11-28T18:33:13Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Let’s be clear on one thing though, this is not a tragedy for all involved. This is only a tragedy for the boy and his family. You act as if the police officer didn’t feel remorse and won’t have to live with his decision for the rest of his life. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/112 "2014-11-28T18:43:57Z")
If the priority, as some seem to feel it should be, is protecting the lives of the police officers, why warn the suspect at all? Would the officers not have been safer simply hitting Rice with their car? They had the opportunity to, and they are claiming to have been able to see the gun before they stopped the car. So why not run him over? That would have reduced, even further, the likelihood of the suspect shooting them. This is absolutely serious question, by the way. It’s the logical extension of the “any threat to the police officer is justification for deadly force.” Rice was apparently an imminent threat. Would striking him with the cruiser not have been a safer and justifiable course of action? ---
**Author:** ![Jamicat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@Jamicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamicat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/113 "2014-11-28T19:00:55Z")
What color should we paint fake guns, when real guns are painted to look like fake guns. :rolleyes: [https://www.google.com/search?q=colored+guns&client=firefox-a&hs=1u7&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=UsV4VKKkB4aigwSe-oKYDw&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1272&bih=653](https://www.google.com/search?q=colored+guns&client=firefox-a&hs=1u7&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=UsV4VKKkB4aigwSe-oKYDw&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1272&bih=653) ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/114 "2014-11-28T21:58:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am unaware of the official police protocols of that city concerning events of that nature, and had not to my knowledge made comments concerning them prior to your initial asking of that question. Now that I have answered that question, **can you tell us what those procedures are** so that we may know why it was so damn important that I in particular answer it? (my bold) You said in Post #53: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > How good for officer safety is it to get as close to the gun as possible as fast as possible without analyzing the situation? To which I responded directly in Post #60 and you quoted above: > [@Bone](#): > > **I’m not aware of the police protocol with an active shooter in a park, are you?** Do you think the police violated their protocol? (my bold) Did you read what you were responding to? I stated directly that I’m not aware of the protocol. It is important that you answer the question since you imply knowledge of it in post #53. You are implying first that it is bad for officer safety to arrive the way they do. You are second saying they did not analyze the situation. As I stated in post #60, I don’t know the protocol. Maybe the way they arrived is bad or against protocol - maybe it isn’t. I actually think their approach method is the biggest area of potential failure in this situation. If their protocol directed them to take a more cautious approach then it would be that violation of protocol that lead to the death. If their protocol directed them to approach a ‘man with a gun’ type call with all the urgency available and immediately engage the potential threat then can you really complain that these officers specifcially made some error of judgment? That’s why I believe this to be the crux of the issue - to which I don’t know what the answer is. > [@Malthus](#): > > Why is the specific number of feet significant? It isn’t like they carried a tape measure. 😕 The point, as explained by the author of the article, is not to “… rush into a situation when you do not have to”. There was nothing about this incident that required the cops to drive right up to a suspect sitting in a gazebo in an apparently mostly deserted playground. How do you know they did not have to? One thing police departments learned from Columbine was that some scenario required an immediate response. I do not know if this is one of those situations. > [@PastTense](#): > > Multiple officers is exactly the situation we have here: Let us assume the first officer shoots the taser instead of firing the gun and has the second officer holds the gun on the kid. And note that the officers are wearing body armor. Where exactly is the danger to the officers? Do you really believe that a person with a firearm does not present a danger to officers wearing body armor? That’s fantasy. > [@RickJay](#): > > If the priority, as some seem to feel it should be, is protecting the lives of the police officers, why warn the suspect at all? Would the officers not have been safer simply hitting Rice with their car? They had the opportunity to, and they are claiming to have been able to see the gun before they stopped the car. So why not run him over? That would have reduced, even further, the likelihood of the suspect shooting them. > > This is absolutely serious question, by the way. It’s the logical extension of the “any threat to the police officer is justification for deadly force.” Rice was apparently an imminent threat. Would striking him with the cruiser not have been a safer and justifiable course of action? I think there could be times when running a person down would be appropriate. I don’t think this situation warranted it. The officers stated that they saw the kid put the replica firearm in his waistband. I’m curious if there will be dashcam video released or if it is even available. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/115 "2014-11-28T22:25:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > How do you know they did not have to? One thing police departments learned from Columbine was that some scenario required an immediate response. I do not know if this is one of those situations. Huh? We know more or less what the officers on the spot knew at the time - that a suspect was allegedly scaring people with a gun (in fact we know more than they - know that gun was “probably a fake”). From the video, we know that the kid was basically sitting in the gazebo by himself when the cops arrive. Is there anything at all to suggest an “immediate response” was required? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/116 "2014-11-28T22:35:51Z")
“Hey, there’s a kid sitting in the park with a gun stuck in his pants.” “Holy SHIT! Remember Columbine?!? I’ll whip this car right up to his sorry face, while you roll out and start firing, just like they do in the movies!” ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/117 "2014-11-28T23:13:22Z")
I’m normally quite opposed to armed police, but I want to second that a taser is inappropiate for a gun fight. I feel the same way about unreliable limb shots with a pistol… if someone is trying to kill you or others, you should shoot to kill. Tasers should not be used if they already have a gun out, muscle spasms are a bad thing when someone has their finger on the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/118 "2014-11-28T23:23:45Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > While I was in the Coast Guard, I managed to obtain a Federal Pistol Permit which covered concealed carry. Before they issued it to me, I had quite an interview going over what my obligations were and were NOT. And one situation we went over was what to do if I’m carrying and I’m stopped by a police officer. I got it right the first time: 1) Keep my hands in plain view, 2) tell the officer “I have a permit and am carrying a pistol”, 3) tell the officer “My pistol is in a holster under my left arm and the permit is in my wallet in my right hip pocket”, 4) and tell the officer “I’m keeping my hands in plain view until you tell me I can move them.” When did you get this “Federal Pistol Permit?” What agency issued it to you? Who interviewed you and explained your obligations? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/119 "2014-11-28T23:51:10Z")
Guys, total SJW here, but I am going to go on the record here as saying that I do not see a disparity between the video and the officers’ account. The officers’ command for him to raise his hands, I’m assuming (and as I think has been indicated already?) came through the speakers on the officers’ car, and was issued before the car stopped. I can very clearly see the child grabbing something at his waistband. This is all exactly in keeping with what the officers’ said happened. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738/120 "2014-11-29T00:33:56Z")
Carrying a firearm is not a threat, and in fact is a Constitutionally enshrined individual right. Carrying a real firearm is not a threat, so of course neither is carrying BB guns or gun-shaped toys. Furthermore, reaching into you pocket or waistband is not a threat either. _Pointing a weapon at someone is a threat._ So, don’t kill people who aren’t threatening others. Pretty simple really. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/person-with-gun-what-are-police-supposed-to-do/705738.md?page=7)