# Personal Crimes, Sins, Peccadilloes of Artists and Their Works **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 5, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060 "2010-12-05T19:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/21 "2010-12-06T06:24:55Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I don’t think art gives the artist a pass, but the art can be evaluated without reference to the artist’s personal life. > > It’s also very complex. Lovecraft’s attitudes were not out of the mainstream for people of his time. You can’t really blame the man if he grew up in a time where racism was commonplace and he took some of it up. Putting 21st century attitudes in your analysis of him is a common critical blunder. > > Polanski made some very great films. He also was charged with statutory rape and ran from the law. From what I’ve heard about the incident, there was plenty of ambiguity as to how it fit and what sort of crime it was _at the time_, and that Polanski ran because he felt he was being singled out for unfair treatment – and under the standards _of the time_, he was. > > But however you look at it, you can’t deny that he made some great films. If you wish to boycott them, go right ahead. While Yellow Peril bigotry may have been much more commonplace in Lovecraft’s time, I don’t believe it was universally accepted. Far from it. Like I said, I don’t have nearly as much of a problem with Lovecraft … I recognize that he was a bigot, but it does not strike me as that awful a moral flaw, especially given that his bigotry may have been not all that hateful and deep … he was an anti-Semite as well, but he married a Jewess. So … weird fellow all round. You are gonna have a HELL of a time convincing me that what Polanski did was not a heinous moral flaw and a crime, especially in the … 1970s I beleive? Or was it the 60s? Does the fact that he made movies some people like make his acts OK? Do people have that sick a need for their entertainment fix? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/22 "2010-12-06T06:43:54Z")
I guess part of the problem too is because the artists we become aware of through the media are often successsful and wealthy, they tend to get away with it too. I mean, OJ killed his wife, we all know that. But hey he was a great athlete, right? Why let a little MURDER tarnish those touchdown runs he made? Still a great athlete, and his comic timing in the Naked Gun movies wasn’t bad either. he was acquitted, reasonable doubt … right? Why hassle the man? Roman Polanski is probably living a pretty good life. Wealthy, successful … probably lives in a nice house, eats out in all the best restaurants, prolly has to watch who he buys for sexual pleasure very carefully, but hey … Eastern Europe! And so many people willing to overlook that little thing he did … very nice … ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/23 "2010-12-06T07:17:50Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > While Yellow Peril bigotry may have been much more commonplace in Lovecraft’s time, I don’t believe it was universally accepted. Far from it. Like I said, I don’t have nearly as much of a problem with Lovecraft … I recognize that he was a bigot, but it does not strike me as that awful a moral flaw, especially given that his bigotry may have been not all that hateful and deep … he was an anti-Semite as well, but he married a Jewess. So … weird fellow all round. > > You are gonna have a HELL of a time convincing me that what Polanski did was not a heinous moral flaw and a crime, especially in the … 1970s I beleive? Or was it the 60s? Does the fact that he made movies some people like make his acts OK? Do people have that sick a need for their entertainment fix? Frankly, I don’t give a rats ass what he did, we are talking about a movie here, not filming snuff flicks. Karma will catch up with him, even if it is only going to hell after his death, or coming back on the great wheel as an abuse victim himself. Depends on what your religious views are. Henry Ford was an amazing racist, are you never going to take advantage of any product made on an assembly line? he essentially made the assembly line the common manufacturing technique [it can be a genius application of applied logistics] Edison took advantage of his sweatshop laboratory workers, many of _his_ patents were actually someone else’s work. He was also a major prick, in his feud against Westinghouse for the type of power transfer the country was going to adopt [ac vs dc] Are you going to refuse to use electricity? Ever heard of a ‘casting couch’? Better give up watching movies. You can never know if someone had to sleep with someone to get that part in the movie, or the job behind the scenes. Same goes for Broadway or Off Broadway plays. Maybe even TV. And give up sports - bribery, recruiting irregularities, game fixing, steroids… Look, you can not confuse someones art [using the term rather loosely, it can be film, song, invention] with them. Very rarely is someones perversion seen in their art [de Sade is a rare exception] You would have to take the point of view that you would need to move into a hermitage to avoid patronizing any possible pervert or debauched person. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/24 "2010-12-06T10:29:24Z")
I’m not actively avoiding works of “sinful” artists (on the contrary, M. Donatien Alphonse François provides a fascinating insight into a perverted mind and also some pretty hard satire about his contemporaries), but I have to admit that I’ve quit reading Arthur C. Clarke after hearing about his [preference for young boys](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_19980201/ai_n14474884/), even so young that they according to my definitions are underage. Especially the novel title “Childhood’s end” has taken on a few ominous overtones. It’s a pity, because I really liked some of his works. It’s just that I don’t feel comfortable reading him anymore ☹ ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/25 "2010-12-06T12:23:44Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I guess if Hitler had released an awesome blues album prior to his political career I might have to reassess, but for the normal range of human sins, the artists moral background doesn’t really factor into my enjoyment. His _Adolf sings Bessie Smith_ is a seminal work for the development of early-modern blues - you oughtta check it out. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/26 "2010-12-06T12:27:31Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > … I have to admit that I’ve quit reading Arthur C. Clarke after hearing about his [preference for young boys](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_19980201/ai_n14474884/)… :eek: I had no idea! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/27 "2010-12-06T14:20:13Z")
Of course I have to bring Woody Allen into this thread. Not only did he fuck his lover’s child, he then tried to paint Mia as an unfit mother. The first is extremely bad, the second, unforgivable. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/28 "2010-12-06T14:21:26Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Of course I have to bring Woody Allen into this thread. I’m convinced your real last name is “Hall.” ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/29 "2010-12-06T15:13:11Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Polanski made some very great films. He also was charged with statutory rape and ran from the law. From what I’ve heard about the incident, there was plenty of ambiguity as to how it fit and what sort of crime it was _at the time_, and that Polanski ran because he felt he was being singled out for unfair treatment – and under the standards _of the time_, he was. For the record, Polanski was _charged_ with several counts relating to forcible rape. He plead guilty to statutory rape. > **[Roman Polanski sexual abuse case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Polanski_sexual_abuse_case)** > > On March 10, 1977, 43-year-old film director Roman Polanski was arrested and charged in Los Angeles with six offenses against Samantha Gailey (now Geimer), a 13-year-old girl: unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor, rape by use of drugs, perversion, sodomy, a lewd and lascivious act upon a child under the age of 14, and furnishing a controlled substance to a minor. At his arraignment, Polanski pleaded not guilty to all charges, but later accepted a plea bargain whose terms included dis Polans... ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/30 "2010-12-06T16:06:35Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > While Yellow Peril bigotry may have been much more commonplace in Lovecraft’s time, I don’t believe it was universally accepted. Far from it. Ever hear of someone named Fu Manchu? And the 30s pulps were full of “yellow peril” stories. Before the Nazis, they were the all-purpose villain of the time. > [@](#): > > You are gonna have a HELL of a time convincing me that what Polanski did was not a heinous moral flaw and a crime, especially in the … 1970s I beleive? I realize that. But you will have a hell of a time understanding that the perception of the situation in the 70s was not the same as it is today. You have your own prejudices in this. It was clearly a crime, but you didn’t have the pedophileophobia that marks current thoughts on the subject, where doing this is the most heinous and disgusting thing a human can do and anyone involved deserves to be treated like scum for the rest of his life and beyond. The authorities at the time were satisfied with the psychiatric evaluation and probation as a sentence; but the judge indicated he wanted to punish Polanski more than that, which is why he ran. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/31 "2010-12-06T16:17:44Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It was clearly a crime, but you didn’t have the pedophileophobia that marks current thoughts on the subject, where doing this is the most heinous and disgusting thing a human can do and anyone involved deserves to be treated like scum for the rest of his life and beyond. The authorities at the time were satisfied with the psychiatric evaluation and probation as a sentence; but the judge indicated he wanted to punish Polanski more than that, which is why he ran. He’s a rapist. If the victim had been 20, what he did would _still_ be rape. So don’t pull this “Oh, it’s just pedophileophobia” bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/32 "2010-12-06T17:14:49Z")
Speaking of Polanski, Charles Manson did record an album before he contributed to the murder of Polanski’s wife Sharon Tate (and the death of their unborn son) and six other people. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/33 "2010-12-06T17:31:07Z")
I prefer to know as little as possibel about an artist’s work. I don’t want to know if Valerie Martin is a racist; I don’t care if Jeff Goldblum volunteers at a soup kitchen; I prefer to be ignorant of Christina Aguilera being beat up by her boyfriend, or beating him up. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/34 "2010-12-06T17:52:13Z")
I’m conflicted. I love [Caravaggio’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo_Merisi) paintings, but his scandalous personal life makes them even more interesting to me. OTOH, I wouldn’t mind seeing Polanski caned to death. Maybe it’s that I find rapists loathesome, but drinking, brawling, gambling rogues not so. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/35 "2010-12-06T17:58:52Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Speaking of Polanski, Charles Manson did record an album before he contributed to the murder of Polanski’s wife Sharon Tate (and the death of their unborn son) and six other people. Yeah, but it sucked so he doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/36 "2010-12-06T18:29:00Z")
The thing about Polanski’s work, though, is that the director of a movie is essentially invisible, while actors, singers, etc. are right up there in your face. So while he did something morally repugnant, that’s something that’s easy to forget, and I can’t unthink \*Chinatown \*as a great movie. Authors are kind of the same for me. If they’re doing their job, they are invisible, and if their morally repugnant ideas are not blasted throughout their works, then it’s easy for me to just not think about them. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/37 "2010-12-06T18:38:07Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Does great art give the artist a pass with regard to moral failings, even very serious ones that rise to the level of heinous crimes? Or should we take the artist into consideration when evaluating our opinion of their work? The floor is open! An artist’s work can (and should) be evaluated on its own merit without knowing anything at all about the artist, up to and including his/her identity. That said, I enjoy an artist’s work less when I have reason to think less of him as a person. I like [Rock and Roll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_Roll_(Gary_Glitter_song)), but ever since [Gary Glitter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Glitter) was arrested for child porn - and then became a child molester - I get somewhat less enjoyment out of the song. I’m interested in seeing Polanski’s Ghostwriter movie, but can’t bring myself to rent it - not because I wouldn’t enjoy it, but because I’m reluctant to to fuel demand for his products. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/38 "2010-12-06T23:30:59Z")
I’m curious about a related question. There is a poet (I’m not going to name him because he googles his name all the time and he’s creepy) who is an admitted anti-Semite. He is also an editor. Many of my friends and acquaintances in the poetry world will not submit to journals that publish this guy OR submit to his journal. Fair or unfair? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/39 "2010-12-06T23:35:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m curious about a related question. There is a poet (I’m not going to name him because he googles his name all the time and he’s creepy) who is an admitted anti-Semite. He is also an editor. Many of my friends and acquaintances in the poetry world will not submit to journals that publish this guy OR submit to his journal. Fair or unfair? I would judge it unfair. I also think it’s pointless. I mean, have you ever gotten paid in anything other than copies for your poetry? I haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060/40 "2010-12-06T23:38:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I would judge it unfair. I also think it’s pointless. I mean, have you ever gotten paid in anything other than copies for your poetry? I haven’t. Yeah, I have. But I’m not sure what getting paid has to do with it. I think the idea is more to withhold support, not to get money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/personal-crimes-sins-peccadilloes-of-artists-and-their-works/563060.md?page=3)