Personal responsibility, or avoiding responsibility?

[Max_S]

@Kearsen1

Max, are you under the assumption that the people with bankruptcies, student loans, and/or child support are blameless for their own choices? Because they don’t make enough to fulfill those obligations?

No and no. I started writing out a detailed reply but there are so many possible reasons for you to ask me this question that I had better leave it at “no”. Why do you ask?

~Max

[Max_S]

@Shodan

Crane can speak for himself, but to me the idea of personal responsibility includes authority over yourself. You make your own decisions to the extent possible, and are allowed to suffer or enjoy the consequences to the extent possible.

Whether or not other people think I am personally responsible shouldn’t matter - I am responsible. And I am, or should be, prepared to take the consequences without excuse. But if I make a decision and someone else makes a different decision, and it turns out well for me and badly for them, that’s not my fault any more than it’s theirs if it’s vice versa.

Obviously these are general principles rather than 100% in every situation. But above you mentioned student loan debt, and child support.

If I decide to take on student loan debt, and so does Joe X, and I wind up employed in my career field and Joe graduates with a degree in Communication and winds up in retail, we are both responsible for our outcomes. His choice of majors does not obligate me, nor does mine obligate him. Or I decide to have a child, and so does Joe. I get married first and stay married and support my child. He doesn’t get married, or he gets divorced, and has to pay child support.

We are both still responsible for our child. Nothing about our differing circumstances absolves us - both on the hook, and the fact that it might be more difficult and painful for him to pay than for me to pay changes nothing.

Now, we both lose our jobs. Guess what - nothing has changed for either of us.

Sometimes no excuse is good enough.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But “I will do what I want and if I fail someone else should pay for it” is not “personal responsibility”. That’s more like the “privatize profits and socialize risk” that liberals seem to object to with banks.

Regards,
Shodan

Sorry, I had meant to address that post to Scylla. I agree with most everything you have written, but I would put more emphasis on the ‘doesn’t apply 100%’ because life is complicated.

~Max

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Shodan

“Personal responsibility” means I am personally responsible for the things I personally did. Feeling responsible for things I didn’t do may or may not be a good thing, but it isn’t the same thing.

And it goes both ways. I am responsible for the things I do wrong, as well as the things I do right.

Obviously it’s not 100% - maybe society is partly to blame if I rob a liquor store, just like it is partly the reason that I graduated at the top of my class at West Point. But by default, the locus of responsibility is me, not anybody else.

Your example of feeling responsible for the racist town you didn’t found or participate in isn’t “personal responsibility” in that sense - it’s altruism, which is a fine but not synonymous thing.

Regards,
Shodan

If there is a social injustice or unjust history from which you derive unsought, unasked for benefit. Do you have a responsibility to do anything?

I don’t think you personally have oppressed anyone but you still benefit from the oppression of others. how do you reconcile that?

[Scumpup]

@Damuri_Ajashi

If there is a social injustice or unjust history from which you derive unsought, unasked for benefit. Do you have a responsibility to do anything?

I don’t think you personally have oppressed anyone but you still benefit from the oppression of others. how do you reconcile that?

How would you have him reconcile that?

[Max_S]

@Damuri_Ajashi

If there is a social injustice or unjust history from which you derive unsought, unasked for benefit. Do you have a responsibility to do anything?

I don’t think you personally have oppressed anyone but you still benefit from the oppression of others. how do you reconcile that?

Depending on the circumstances, I might have a responsibility to do something. But that responsibility would not flow from “personal responsibility”. It might be charity or utilitarianism or religion or what have you.

~Max

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Scumpup

How would you have him reconcile that?

I’d start with having him acknowledge it. Then ask him what his values tell him ought to be done.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Max_S

Depending on the circumstances, I might have a responsibility to do something. But that responsibility would not flow from “personal responsibility”. It might be charity or utilitarianism or religion or what have you.

~Max

So does morality/equity/fairness play into personal responsibility at all?

Because if it doesn’t then I’m not sure that personal responsibility is a particularly convincing philosophy on which to base a society.

[Max_S]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So does morality/equity/fairness play into personal responsibility at all?

Personal responsibility plays into morality, not the other way around. Fairness/equity, which is different than morality, sometimes clashes with personal responsibility. Which comes out supreme depends on one’s philosophy.

@Damuri_Ajashi

Because if it doesn’t then I’m not sure that personal responsibility is a particularly convincing philosophy on which to base a society.

Personal responsibility is not an all-encompassing moral philosophy on its own.

~Max

[Shodan]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So does morality/equity/fairness play into personal responsibility at all?

Yes, it does.

If I steal your car and crash it and cause $1000 in damage, who should pay for that damage, me or my rich next-door neighbor? Most people would say it was me, even though my neighbor can more easily sustain the loss. He could volunteer to do so out of altruism, but that is not the same thing as saying he is personally responsible. Because it is not fair/equitable to make him responsible for what I do, or the consequences.

Who is responsible in the old story, the ant or the grasshopper?

Regards,
Shodan

[k9bfriender]

@Shodan

Yes, it does.

If I steal your car and crash it and cause $1000 in damage, who should pay for that damage, me or my rich next-door neighbor? Most people would say it was me, even though my neighbor can more easily sustain the loss. He could volunteer to do so out of altruism, but that is not the same thing as saying he is personally responsible. Because it is not fair/equitable to make him responsible for what I do, or the consequences.

Interesting non-sequitor.

Who is responsible in the old story, the ant or the grasshopper?

You mean the socialist ant who works for the community and is therefore then supported by the community vs the libertarian grasshopper who owes nothing to anyone else?

[Shodan]

Do you have anything to add to the discussion other than that you don’t understand it? Although I am not sure I can explain “who is responsible - the person who committed the action or some random stranger” in any simpler terms.

Regards,
Shodan

[k9bfriender]

@Shodan

Do you have anything to add to the discussion other than that you don’t understand it? Although I am not sure I can explain “who is responsible - the person who committed the action or some random stranger” in any simpler terms.

Well, maybe the problem is that you are trying to make it too simple. It is a complex subject with quite a bit of nuance, and making it simple ignores much of that.

A much better analogy for the car situation that you broached would be that you stole my car, then used it to provide rides to your friends, who trashed it while getting benefit out of it.

Now, you are the one who stole the car, so you are the one ultimately responsible, but do you say in this instance that your friends bear no responsibility whatsoever?

It was you that brought up the example of the ant vs grasshopper, if you think it is irrelevant, then why did you ring it up? I was just wondering which one of those you were considering to be the more responsible one, as it would seem that it is the ant that it responsible, but it is the grasshopper that you emulate.

[Shodan]

@k9bfriender

Well, maybe the problem is that you are trying to make it too simple.

And still you didn’t understand it.

It was you that brought up the example of the ant vs grasshopper, if you think it is irrelevant, then why did you ring it up?

I didn’t ring it up; I posted it.

I was just wondering which one of those you were considering to be the more responsible one, as it would seem that it is the ant that it responsible, but it is the grasshopper that you emulate.

A story for children, and still you don’t get it.

:shrugs: I don’t pretend to be better than Aesop at explaining things.

Regards,
Shodan

[k9bfriender]

@Shodan

And still you didn’t understand it.

And you’re still wrong, contrary to your confident, yet completely unsupported and contradicted assumption.

I didn’t ring it up; I posted it.

My apologies, I did make a slight typo there. Either you were incapable of parsing the sentence with a single typo, or you are using a slight mistake as an excuse to avoid the question.

So, assuming that you were actually confused, then with all due apologies for the prior typo: If you didn’t think it was relevant, why did you bring it up?

A story for children, and still you don’t get it.

:shrugs: I don’t pretend to be better than Aesop at explaining things.

No, once again, you make assertions that are incorrect. I got it just fine. I take it that means that you are unable to answer such a simple question?

[Shodan]

@k9bfriender

No, once again, you make assertions that are incorrect. I got it just fine.

No, I don’t think you did. I doubt very much if someone who reads the story of the ant and the grasshopper, and thinks the grasshopper is the one suggested for emulation, gets it. You apparently thought that was the point of the story. So, you don’t get it.

I take it that means that you are unable to answer such a simple question?

If this is the question you mean -

If you didn’t think it was relevant, why did you bring it up?

It was relevant, that’s why. The idea that it was irrelevant was yours, and, as we have seen, apparently based on your lack of understanding of a children’s bedtime story.

So, you’re right. It’s a simple question. A stupid question, but a simple one, and has been answered. Now go to bed.

Regards,
Shodan

[Max_S]

@Shodan

Yes, it does.

If I steal your car and crash it and cause $1000 in damage, who should pay for that damage, me or my rich next-door neighbor? Most people would say it was me, even though my neighbor can more easily sustain the loss. He could volunteer to do so out of altruism, but that is not the same thing as saying he is personally responsible. Because it is not fair/equitable to make him responsible for what I do, or the consequences.

Who is responsible in the old story, the ant or the grasshopper?

Regards,
Shodan

I don’t think this allegory of the stolen car properly shows the interplay between equity and personal responsibility. Let’s say Bob the pauper steals my car. He forced me out of the car at knifepoint and I am totally in the clear as far as blame goes. Bob crashes the stolen car into your house, causing you moderate but not life-threatening injuries. Bob dies during the crash, and your home insurance sucks. Now you have $10,000 in repairs and medical expenses, of which maybe half will be paid for by insurance. You don’t have the money to pick up the rest. The deceased perpetrator has something like $30 to his name. I am also out some $2,000 because my comprehensive auto insurance has a deductible, but my insurance isn’t going to pay you. Now here’s the moral question: should your neighbor help pay to fix your house?

~Max

[k9bfriender]

@Shodan

No, I don’t think you did. I doubt very much if someone who reads the story of the ant and the grasshopper, and thinks the grasshopper is the one suggested for emulation, gets it.

Ah, I see where you went wrong in your feeble attempt at understanding. I did not say that the grasshopper was the one to be emulated, I was saying that the grasshopper is the one that those who eschew not only personal, but social, responsibility are emulating. I agree that the ant is the one who sets the better example to follow. I disagree that, given your and those of your compatriots in this thread’s contributions, that you are in any way emulating the example of the ant.

So, once again, and as usual, you are wrong.

You apparently thought that was the point of the story. So, you don’t get it.

You apparently thought it was actually a story about some insects, rather than a metaphor, which must be why you were not able to understand my question to you.

If this is the question you mean -

No, that would be the follow up question to the previous question that you avoided answering. I’m sorry that keeping track of a few back and forths is so confusing to you.

It was relevant, that’s why. The idea that it was irrelevant was yours, and, as we have seen, apparently based on your lack of understanding of a children’s bedtime story.

Ah, so you think it’s just a children’s bedtime story, and not an allegory about the consequences of decisions made by individuals and societies.

So, you’re right. It’s a simple question. A stupid question, but a simple one, and has been answered. Now go to bed.

Actually it has not been answered. Do you identify with the ant or the grasshopper? That is the question that you have gone to great pains to avoid answering.

You have also avoided discussing the fact that your car analogy was quite flawed, in that your rich neighbor did not get a benefit out of you stealing the car. As the actual situation being discussed is that you are benefiting from participating in society, the analogy needs to take into account a way that your rich neighbor benefited from your theft.

To make is simple for you, if I do something “wrong”, whether it be illegal, unethical, or counterproductive, and you get a benefit out of that, do you bear any responsibility for the harm that my actions caused?

[Max_S]

@k9bfriender

You have also avoided discussing the fact that your car analogy was quite flawed, in that your rich neighbor did not get a benefit out of you stealing the car. As the actual situation being discussed is that you are benefiting from participating in society, the analogy needs to take into account a way that your rich neighbor benefited from your theft.

I think we could at least fit this in my analogy by replacing “neighbor” with “the home repair contractor”.

~Max

[Scumpup]

@k9bfriender

You mean the socialist ant who works for the community and is therefore then supported by the community vs the libertarian grasshopper who owes nothing to anyone else?

Wow.

[k9bfriender]

@Scumpup

Wow.

Yeah, I can absolutely understand how you would have a feeling of epiphany when you realize that children’s tales taught at a young age were actually meant as allegories to things in the real world, and not just bedtime stories.