# Persuade me not to give up on Babylon 5 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 26, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851 "2009-03-26T11:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/21 "2009-03-26T15:45:40Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > And, I also agree that Season 5 wound up being very anti-climactic, since the main storyline was wrapped up in Season 4. Although the series finale, “Sleeping In Light”, is a must-see if you watched the first four seasons. Even if you skip S5 (which I can’t fault you for…I didn’t watch it, either), that last hour is…satisfying. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/22 "2009-03-26T16:00:32Z")
B5 was written like a book. they already knew the story before they started filming the first show. Like many books, the first part of it is all exposition, and can be slow going. I learned to appreciate season one after seeing the whole series. You can see the whole story laid out in that season, even to the extent that there are Rangers in the backgrounds of some scenes, even though they aren’t introduced until season 2. ---
**Author:** ![Prox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/da6949/32.png) [@Prox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prox)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/23 "2009-03-26T16:04:28Z")
[QUOTE=kenobi 65] Especially once Commander Sinclair (or, as my wife and I called him, Commander Wood, due to his limited acting range) is replaced by Captain Sheridan. [/quote] I checked the show out last year on Hulu, and while I agree with much of the list in the OP, it was Sinclair that caused me to stop watching about half way through the first season. If he gets replaced, I may have to start watching it again. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/24 "2009-03-26T16:08:02Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > I’d love to see a sci fi show that portrayed the human race as free from old fashioned superstition. Umm…yeah. It’s called “Star Trek”, which I seem to recall you having a problem with in the OP. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/25 "2009-03-26T16:08:58Z")
> [@Prox](#): > > I checked the show out last year on Hulu, and while I agree with much of the list in the OP, it was Sinclair that caused me to stop watching about half way through the first season. If he gets replaced, I may have to start watching it again. He does, by Bruce Boxleitner, who is significantly more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/26 "2009-03-26T16:19:45Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Umm…yeah. It’s called “Star Trek”, which I seem to recall you having a problem with in the OP. You’re kidding, right? As I said, I’ve seen the first two seasons of DS9. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/27 "2009-03-26T16:27:07Z")
> [@Prox](#): > > I checked the show out last year on Hulu, and while I agree with much of the list in the OP, it was Sinclair that caused me to stop watching about half way through the first season. If he gets replaced, I may have to start watching it again. He does get replaced, and he did suck ass. “Captain, something terrible is happening!”. Sinclair responds with a half-assed smirk. “Captain, something wonderful is happening!”. Sinclair responds with a half-assed smirk. “Captain, someone made a joke!”. Sinclair responds with a half-assed smirk. “Captain, the ship carrying nothing but orphans, puppies, and kittens was just destroyed!”. Sinclair responds with a half-assed smirk. And anyone who can tell me where I got the bottom one from gets a prize. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/28 "2009-03-26T16:28:43Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > You’re kidding, right? As I said, I’ve seen the first two seasons of DS9. No I’m not. You wanted one where humans had ditched religion, and that’s exactly what you get in Star Trek. There’s mystical stuff in DS9, but it’s all clearly because of a specific set of alien beings, and I certainly don’t recall any human religious stuff going on. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/29 "2009-03-26T17:04:27Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > You make a good point. I have a hope that religious belief would not survive contact with alien civilizations, but I’m probably wrong to be so optimistic. I object more to the “mystical” elements more than the religious, but I object to the woo woo back here on Earth as well. The show deals with human religions a fair bit, and pretty much always in a positive light, but it never “endorses” any human religions. Actually, let me put this bit in a spoiler box. This is something that gets revealed in season 2, IIRC: It comes out that the Vorlons have been tinkering with the other, lesser races for centuries, and are responsible for a lot of things that were considered miraculous. Specifically, they’ve altered the minds of most of the major races so that they would perceive Vorlons as angelic beings when they’re not in their encounter suits. If you’re interested, a while ago I made a list of which episodes in the first season are necessary viewing to set up things that come later, and which can be safely skipped. I can post it when I get home tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/30 "2009-03-26T17:18:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you’re interested, a while ago I made a list of which episodes in the first season are necessary viewing to set up things that come later, and which can be safely skipped. I can post it when I get home tonight. I might well be. I just watched Ep 4 and it was pretty crap. I will persevere a bit longer, as I have nothing better to do.\* \*Apart from finish 2 magazine articles and 1 book - oh, shit! ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/31 "2009-03-26T17:20:44Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > No I’m not. You wanted one where humans had ditched religion, and that’s exactly what you get in Star Trek. There’s mystical stuff in DS9, but it’s all clearly because of a specific set of alien beings, and I certainly don’t recall any human religious stuff going on. Maybe not in an organised sense, but there was a ton of woo woo. But I do take your point. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/32 "2009-03-26T17:34:04Z")
I’d stick with it. Sinclair’s replacement by Sheridan is a little awkward (there were all sorts of prophecies ‘n’ stuff re: Sinclair) but long overdue, when it comes. The Lando/G’kar dynamic is great, and only becomes more so. In individual episode quality B5 was no more uneven, overall, than ST:TNG, I’d say, and I like both. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/33 "2009-03-26T17:39:14Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > I might well be. I just watched Ep 4 and it was pretty crap. I will persevere a bit longer, as I have nothing better to do.\* Episode 4 (“Infection”) is pretty much up there as the worst Babylon 5 episode of all time…it’s between that and TKO (which comes later in the first season.) Since you know most of the characters, I see no problem with skipping most of season 1. Just watch the following episodes, which have good overall plot arc pieces in them: “Mind War,” (ep 5, the special guest star makes this episode.) “And the Sky Full of Stars,” (ep 8) “Believers” (ep 10..not needed, but still (IMO) a decent episode from season 1.) “Signs and Portents” (ep 13) And then start watching ep 17 (“Legacies”) and continue with the rest of the season. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/34 "2009-03-26T18:13:23Z")
Straczynski said before it aired that “Signs and Portents” is a must-see, and it’s really where the plot began to come together. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/35 "2009-03-26T18:16:22Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Episode 4 (“Infection”) is pretty much up there as the worst Babylon 5 episode of all time…it’s between that and TKO (which comes later in the first season.) > > Since you know most of the characters, I see no problem with skipping most of season 1. Just watch the following episodes, which have good overall plot arc pieces in them: > > “Mind War,” (ep 5, the special guest star makes this episode.) > “And the Sky Full of Stars,” (ep 8) > “Believers” (ep 10..not needed, but still (IMO) a decent episode from season 1.) > “Signs and Portents” (ep 13) > > And then start watching ep 17 (“Legacies”) and continue with the rest of the season. Season 1 is not as great as 2 thru 4, though I watched them ALL at the time of broadcast. You COULD pass on some of the episodes, but I think most help with character development and in giving a sense of the society in which they live. “Born to the Purple” gives you an idea of Centauri politics. “Eyes” foreshadows future relations with Earth. “Babylon Squared” introduces Zathras, and is the beginning of the time travel plot. CANNOT be missed. “Chrysalis”, the season-ender, has more Morden, and involves many important plot points. More info on the episodes. > **[Lurker's Guide: Episode List](http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/eplist.html)** Skip “TKO”. Most of the others will pay dividends later. Maybe skip “Grail”, but I still use the line, “. . .and he made a very satisfying thump.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/36 "2009-03-26T19:00:35Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Episode 4 (“Infection”) is pretty much up there as the worst Babylon 5 episode of all time…it’s between that and TKO (which comes later in the first season.) I really hope it doesn’t get worse! > [@](#): > > Since you know most of the characters, I see no problem with skipping most of season 1. Just watch the following episodes, which have good overall plot arc pieces in them: > > “Mind War,” (ep 5, the special guest star makes this episode.) > “And the Sky Full of Stars,” (ep 8) > “Believers” (ep 10..not needed, but still (IMO) a decent episode from season 1.) > “Signs and Portents” (ep 13) > > And then start watching ep 17 (“Legacies”) and continue with the rest of the season. I just watched ep 5, and kind of enjoyed it (definitely best so far), but it was called Parliament of Dreams. It had the line up of all Earth religions at the end, which was amusing given this thread. I’m glad the atheist came first! Ep 6 seems to be called Mind Wars, unless I’ve gotten things out of order. I will watch now and report back shortly! ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/37 "2009-03-26T19:11:39Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > Ep 6 seems to be called Mind Wars, unless I’ve gotten things out of order. I will watch now and report back shortly! You’re probably right, I was looking at an episode list and must have just mis-read. And **Face Intentionally Left Blank** , he already saw “Born to the Purple” (I didn’t give a complete list of ones from Season 1, just ones he hadn’t seen yet.) And both “Babylon Squared” and “Chrysalis” are included in my list (I said start at ep 17 and finish the season, and those are both after ep 17) Oh, and the line “and he made a very satisfying thump when he hit the floor” isn’t from “Grail,” it’s from “A Late Delivery from Avalon,” from season 3, which is actually a good episode, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/38 "2009-03-26T19:16:57Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > It had the line up of all Earth religions at the end, which was amusing given this thread. That, by the way, is one of the scenes I was referring to. I’ve seen several people talk about how it gave them chills, or made them really think, or whatever. I thought it was stupid, preachy, and cheesy. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/39 "2009-03-26T19:20:06Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > That, by the way, is one of the scenes I was referring to. I’ve seen several people talk about how it gave them chills, or made them really think, or whatever. I thought it was stupid, preachy, and cheesy. From what I recall back in the day, most people gave it a lot of credit because it was J.M.S. giving religion a decent amount of respect when the man is a very much straightforward atheist. Not that it gave them orgasmic chills or anything. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851/40 "2009-03-26T19:23:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Skip “TKO”. Most of the others will pay dividends later. Agreed. I would not recommend skipping any other episode, since all of them have at least some connection to one of the big story arcs, but the only thing that TKO connects to is one other episode involving Ivanova’s family backstory. There are a few other episodes which have only a tenuous connection to the main story arcs, but those are actually _good_ standalone episodes. Here, let me spoil the entire plot of TKO: Everyone but the humans participate in the galactic version of the UFC, but humans don’t because we’re not tough enough. But a plucky down-on-his-luck human boxer wants to participate, to turn his career around. After convincing the guy in charge of the matches to let him compete, he does. He wins, and everybody’s happy. There, now you don’t have to see that one. > [@](#): > > My other objection is that sci fi shows seem to make up religions that are just farcical. Most of the human characters don’t have made-up religions, they have already-established real religions. Off the top of my head, Sinclair (the captain with poor acting skills) is Catholic, Ivanova (the second-in-command) is Jewish, and Garibaldi (the balding security guy) is agnostic. Franklin (the doctor) has a religion that they made up for the show, but he admits that it’s a very small and not well known sect. Of the alien religions, details about Delenn’s religion are spoilers, G’kar’s religion (which is specifically noted as being one of many different Narn religions, and his assistant Na’toth is an atheist) appears to be more of a philosophy than a religion, and we only see bare snippets of any of the others (the Pakmara, for instance, hold it as a religious belief that they’re the pinnacles of creation, as evidenced by the fact that they can eat all other species). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-not-to-give-up-on-babylon-5/490851.md?page=3)