# Persuade me that deafness & hearing impairment are not best thought of as disabilities. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370 "2011-05-26T23:36:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/301 "2011-06-10T18:48:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s what I was expecting, and yes, it’s flat wrong and always has been. I’ve never suggested (or believed) that deaf people don’t lead worthwhile lives the same as people who can hear, but that doesn’t mean deafness is just like being blonde or lefthanded or gay in terms of its impact on one’s life. I thought **CitizenPained** disagreed with me (post #273) when I said she was comparing those things, but I guess not. I never said that one impacts more or less. I said that ‘disabilities are on a continuium’. What makes deaf unique is the linguistic features and neurological development of deaf children. I mean, in your neck of the woods, being gay is no big deal. In Texas, maybe parents would rather have a deaf child. > [@Marley23](#): > > Then we’re all disabled: we can’t be things we aren’t. That applies to everybody, so we can throw it out as a non-starter. You pointed out that diabled is when the majority group defines it, right? That’s my argument. The majority group is WRONG. You think that gay people are not defective but you think that deaf are because of a lack of hearing? What in the hell are humans on earth for and what is it that’s required to keep going? All reproducing requires a member of the opposite sex: even lesbians need sperm. Being gay is just as disabling as being deaf if you want to go the medical route. But guess what? Neither condition really fucking matters and neither group should be treated as _defective_ or _lacking_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/302 "2011-06-10T18:48:37Z")
Damn it-“disabled”, “inferior” and “defective” are three _very_ different words with three _very_ different definitions. Would you mind picking one, looking up the definition, and sticking to it? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/303 "2011-06-10T18:50:15Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Without reproductive technology, gays and lesbians would not be having children or would be participating in horribly uncomfortable and potentially traumatizing sex to do it. All you need is a turkey baster. Seriously, you’re so far off base here that you’re in the dugout. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/304 "2011-06-10T18:50:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Damn it-“disabled”, “inferior” and “defective” are three _very_ different words with three _very_ different definitions. Would you mind picking one, looking up the definition, and sticking to it? Of course she’ll mind. Have we been reading the same thread? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/305 "2011-06-10T18:59:05Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > All you need is a turkey baster. Seriously, you’re so far off base here that you’re in the dugout. …that’s [technology](http://www.fertilityplus.org/faq/homeinsem.html#syringe). :smack: > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Of course she’ll mind. Have we been reading the same thread? 😉 Yeah, but the perception here is that deaf people are inferior to hearing people because of their deafness. Basically, 'Being deaf would suck." It’s a lingo-centric viewpoint and one that I’m surprised exists on such a left-leaning message. Would you appreciate it if I ‘best’ thought of transgendered as ‘disabled’? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/306 "2011-06-10T19:00:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So they suffered some unspeakable horror for the sake of becoming pregnant? :eek: You mean that it’s okay to view sex as an act of child-making and not one of PLEASURE? > > Egads ! > > My point is that lesbians and gays were considered ‘defective’ because they weren’t attracted to members of the opposite sex. Without reproductive technology, gays and lesbians would not be having children or would be participating in horribly uncomfortable and potentially traumatizing sex to do it. Who said the sex was uncomfortable or traumatizing? It’s possible for someone to vastly prefer sex with one gender but still be able to appreciate it with the other. I identify as straight but I’ve kissed a dude, and it didn’t suck. I know at least one lesbian who’s willingly had sex with a dude without fighting back bitter acidic tears. As I already wrote: your claim that gay persons lack the “ability” to be straight is silly, because being straight or gay or bi or whatnot is not an action; it is an identity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/307 "2011-06-10T19:03:02Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Yeah, but the perception here is that deaf people are inferior to hearing people because of their deafness. Cite where someone uses the word “inferior” to describe deaf people. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/308 "2011-06-10T19:03:55Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > What makes deaf unique is the linguistic features and neurological development of deaf children. Which remains a minority of deaf people. [And I think children who are born blind adapt in a similar way.](http://www.sciencentechnologyupdates.com/2011/03/parts-of-brain-can-switch-functions-in.html) > [@](#): > > That’s my argument. The majority group is WRONG. OK. As far as I’m concerned, you haven’t come anywhere close to proving it. > [@](#): > > You think that gay people are not defective but you think that deaf are because of a lack of hearing? I never said deaf people were defective and I’ve said many times that they aren’t. Your insistence that I have is becoming offensive. > [@](#): > > What in the hell are humans on earth for They’re here because their parents had sex. 😉 People aren’t here “for” anything. > [@](#): > > Being gay is just as disabling as being deaf if you want to go the medical route. Being gay doesn’t prevent people from reproducing. It never has, and today, that’s less the case than ever. Deaf people are biologically capable of reproducing, too, and they do with deaf and hearing people. I’m sure there are cultural and language barriers sometimes, but obviously couples overcome that. > [@](#): > > neither group should be treated as _defective_ or _lacking_. No one said they should be treated as defective or lacking. I’m not sure how you could have failed to notice all the times I specifically said I don’t think deaf people are inferior or subhuman. It’s ridiculous. I’m reluctant to address this because this is clearly an emotional topic for you, but I get the impression you think that if we say deaf people are disabled, we’re also saying that _you_ are disabled because you have epilepsy, and that therefore we believe you personally are inferior. We’re not saying that. Stop assuming we are. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/309 "2011-06-10T19:04:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Who said the sex was uncomfortable or traumatizing? It’s possible for someone to vastly prefer sex with one gender but still be able to appreciate it with the other. I identify as straight but I’ve kissed a dude, and it didn’t suck. I know at least one lesbian who’s willingly had sex with a dude without fighting back bitter acidic tears. > > As I already wrote: your claim that gay persons lack the “ability” to be straight is silly, because being straight or gay or bi or whatnot is not an action; it is an identity. What? You mean some lesbians are bisexual?! And they are choosing to be gay? :smack: Look, being a true-blue-can’t-do-you-and-be-happy gay person _is_ a medical defect by its definition. It’s not a psychological one and doesn’t need to be ‘cured’, but the same reasons the APA put forth for taking it out of its manual are the same that Deaf put forth. 1. Deaf don’t want to be cured. 2. Deaf can use technology to adapt. 3. Deaf are discriminated against. 4. Being Deaf is just as valid as being Hearing. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/310 "2011-06-10T19:11:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Which remains a minority of deaf people. [And I think children who are born blind adapt in a similar way.](http://www.sciencentechnologyupdates.com/2011/03/parts-of-brain-can-switch-functions-in.html) Pre-linguistic Deaf is what I’m talking about. Stop saying the obvious. > [@](#): > > OK. As far as I’m concerned, you haven’t come anywhere close to proving it. Like how gays and lesbians haven’t ‘proved’ that being attracted to only one sex isn’t a disability? 😉 > [@](#): > > I never said deaf people were defective and I’ve said many times that they aren’t. Your insistence that I have is becoming offensive. The song and dance isn’t about you, Marley. There are other people in this thread. > [@](#): > > They’re here because their parents had sex. 😉 People aren’t here “for” anything. Fair enough. But we do operate with the idea that people will be ‘here’ in the future. Via reproduction. > [@](#): > > Being gay doesn’t prevent people from reproducing. It never has, and today, that’s less the case than ever. Deaf people are biologically capable of reproducing, too, and they do with deaf and hearing people. I’m sure there are cultural and language barriers sometimes, but obviously couples overcome that. I never said being gay prevented you from reproducing. But gay advocates say that you can’t discriminate against gays or same-sex marriage or try to ‘cure’ them because _gay isn’t something to be cured_, and even if you tried, _you couldn’t._ > [@](#): > > No one said they should be treated as defective or lacking. I’m not sure how you could have failed to notice all the times I specifically said I don’t think deaf people are inferior or subhuman. It’s ridiculous. Deaf people are treated as those who lack hearing AND as a result, have undesirable trait/s. Look at the thread. “Deaf people have to be more aware…deaf people get into more car accidents…I couldn’t do this if i were deaf…” etc. > [@](#): > > I’m reluctant to address this because this is clearly an emotional topic for you, but I get the impression you think that if we say deaf people are disabled, we’re also saying that _you_ are disabled because you have epilepsy, and that therefore we believe you personally are inferior. We’re not saying that. Stop assuming we are. No. I’m coming at this from philosophical, medical, and linguistic standpoints. I do have a disability. Whop de do. If you want to argue that deafness is a medical disability, I don’t disagree with you. But so is being gay. This whole thread started because I rejected someone’s ridiculous idea that the Deaf community _wants_ to hear. “Oh, well, if I created a pill to CURE HOMOSEXUALITY, ya’ll would be taking it!” If I could selectively abort a fetus that I knew had ‘homosexual traits’, is that unethical? Because people in this thread have said that deafness is undesirable. ---
**Author:** ![OldnCrinkly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OldnCrinkly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldnCrinkly)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/311 "2011-06-10T19:11:51Z")
Some years ago I had two neighbors who lived across the alley in the back of my house. They were both deaf. One day the lady comes to my door crying with a note to please call the police. Of course I did. I had to use the pay phone across the street. I don’t even want to discuss trying to talk to the dispatcher, who could not understand that I had no idea what the problem was. When the police came they also could not communicate with my neighbor. They had a friend over who had apparently beaten the husband. If you say that their not being able to utilize available resources when they were in danger is not a disability, you are in denial. They lived their lives okay I guess, they were together, worked, shopped, had parties, whatever else we all do in a day, but they were limited by their disability. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/312 "2011-06-10T19:15:56Z")
> [@OldnCrinkly](#): > > Some years ago I had two neighbors who lived across the alley in the back of my house. They were both deaf. One day the lady comes to my door crying with a note to please call the police. Of course I did. I had to use the pay phone across the street. I don’t even want to discuss trying to talk to the dispatcher, who could not understand that I had no idea what the problem was. When the police came they also could not communicate with my neighbor. They had a friend over who had apparently beaten the husband. > > If you say that their not being able to utilize available resources when they were in danger is not a disability, you are in denial. They lived their lives okay I guess, they were together, worked, shopped, had parties, whatever else we all do in a day, but they were limited by their disability. I don’t know of **ANY** deaf people who can’t call the police or read and write…and apparently your neighbors could write, hence the note. So your personal story is nice, but that’s no more different than a hearing dysfunctional couple. Deaf people have been using phones for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/313 "2011-06-10T19:23:08Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I don’t know of **ANDY** deaf people who can’t call the police or read and write. So your personal story is nice, but that’s no more different than a hearing dysfunctional couple. > > Deaf people have been using phones for decades. First: is “Andy” a typo for _any_, or an abbreviation? If the latter, what does it mean? ETA: Never mind, I see you’ve corrected the error. Second: I can think of several deaf persons I’ve met who don’t use TTY, and a few who can’t read or write well. The former are persons who lost their hearing late in life and are not comfortable with technology, even the limited sort of TTY as opposed to computerized relay. The latter are persons who were deaf from early childhood who were ill-served by their education as a youth. I think specifically of a bank customer of mine from a decade ago; I had to deal with her each time she came in the branch because I was the only person about who was even close to being conversant in sign, and her written notes were simply incomprehensible because she tried use ASL grammar for written English. I’m not blaming her, and I’m not saying she is in any way inferior to other persons. But she DID have a disability; there were things she could not do. I hope that, if my son had lived longer, he’d have gotten a better education, but he too would have had a more difficult time of it than his cousin who was born within a month of him, because she can hear and had access to more sensory input. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/314 "2011-06-10T19:24:36Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Pre-linguistic Deaf is what I’m talking about. Stop saying the obvious. Then you need to stop talking about a small minority of deaf people as if they represented all deaf people. If you lose your hearing or any sense at the age of 60 or 70 or older, of course it’s going to be a major disability. It’d be silly to argue otherwise. You can learn to deal with it and people do that, but it’s difficult. And that’s what happens to most people who lose their hearing. People who become disabled earlier deal with it much better, which makes sense. That doesn’t mean deafness isn’t a disability. > [@](#): > > The song and dance isn’t about you, Marley. There are other people in this thread. You’ve spent the last several pages primarily talking to me, **Czarcasm** , and **Skald the Rhymer**. None of us have said deaf people are defective or inferior, but you continue to insist on the point. > [@](#): > > But gay advocates say that you can’t discriminate against gays or same-sex marriage or try to ‘cure’ them because _gay isn’t something to be cured_, and even if you tried, _you couldn’t._ Yes, because it’s not a medical condition. If my auditory nerves were severed tomorrow, I’d lose my hearing. If they were repaired, I’d have it again. Human sexuality is a bit more complicated than that. We have tools that can reduce a person’s hearing impairment. We don’t have tools that reduce how gay or straight a person is (well, maybe alcohol for some people), and why would we? > [@](#): > > Deaf people are treated as those who lack hearing. Look at the thread. “Deaf people have to be more aware…deaf people get into more car accidents…I couldn’t do this if i were deaf…” etc. I think someone called you on this already, but the thing about car accidents is a terrible paraphrase. I don’t have time to look, but I don’t think the others are any better. More importantly I think you’re using them to paint an inaccurate picture of how the posters look at deaf people. The “hearing pill” comment was wrong, but the quotes don’t illustrate that the people who wrote them can’t see past the disability. > [@](#): > > I do have a disability. Whop de do. And I don’t think the disability makes you inferior. I don’t think deaf people are inferior because of their disability either. Can we get on with our lives? > [@](#): > > If you want to argue that deafness is a medical disability, I don’t disagree with you. But so is being gay. So far, your arguments to this end have been so ridiculous I don’t see why we should continue with them. > [@](#): > > If I could selectively abort a fetus that I knew had ‘homosexual traits’, is that unethical? Because people in this thread have said that deafness is undesirable. These two things have nothing to do each other. Saying a trait is undesirable does not mean fetuses with the trait should be aborted. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/315 "2011-06-10T22:06:53Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > First: is “Andy” a typo for _any_, or an abbreviation? If the latter, what does it mean? > > ETA: Never mind, I see you’ve corrected the error. > > Second: I can think of several deaf persons I’ve met who don’t use TTY, and a few who can’t read or write well. The former are persons who lost their hearing late in life and are not comfortable with technology, even the limited sort of TTY as opposed to computerized relay. The latter are persons who were deaf from early childhood who were ill-served by their education as a youth. I think specifically of a bank customer of mine from a decade ago; I had to deal with her each time she came in the branch because I was the only person about who was even close to being conversant in sign, and her written notes were simply incomprehensible because she tried use ASL grammar for written English. > > I’m not blaming her, and I’m not saying she is in any way inferior to other persons. But she DID have a disability; there were things she could not do. I hope that, if my son had lived longer, he’d have gotten a better education, but he too would have had a more difficult time of it than his cousin who was born within a month of him, because she can hear and had access to more sensory input. She couldn’t read and write well. If your son had lived longer and learned ASL, he’d be no worse off than a hearing child re: reading & writing. Also, this may not be the right thread, but since you mentioned it, I am sorry for the loss of your boy. That is horrible. > [@Marley23](#): > > Then you need to stop talking about a small minority of deaf people as if they represented all deaf people. If you lose your hearing or any sense at the age of 60 or 70 or older, of course it’s going to be a major disability. It’d be silly to argue otherwise. You can learn to deal with it and people do that, but it’s difficult. And that’s what happens to most people who lose their hearing. People who become disabled earlier deal with it much better, which makes sense. That doesn’t mean deafness isn’t a disability. No, **Marley** , you need to stop taking Deaf as to mean every person who is deaf. You’re a smart cat. It’s been explained several times. Can we stay on the subject of CI, neurological developments, and disabilities arising from childhood illnesses or congenital defects? Kthx. > [@](#): > > You’ve spent the last several pages primarily talking to me, **Czarcasm** , and **Skald the Rhymer**. None of us have said deaf people are defective or inferior, but you continue to insist on the point. > [@](#): > > Yes, because it’s not a medical condition. If my auditory nerves were severed tomorrow, I’d lose my hearing. If they were repaired, I’d have it again. Human sexuality is a bit more complicated than that. We have tools that can reduce a person’s hearing impairment. We don’t have tools that reduce how gay or straight a person is (well, maybe alcohol for some people), and why would we? You have tools that ‘reduce’ one’s ‘natural’ instincts – drugs – just like there are tools to ‘decrease’ one’s ‘deafness’. They are temporary and not necessarily efficient means of coping with so-called aberrations. Gays are a biological minority. So are deaf children. You can put a CI in a child and do all the therapy you want. They aren’t _hearing and processing_ like you and I do. > [@](#): > > I think someone called you on this already, but the thing about car accidents is a terrible paraphrase. I don’t have time to look, but I don’t think the others are any better. More importantly I think you’re using them to paint an inaccurate picture of how the posters look at deaf people. The “hearing pill” comment was wrong, but the quotes don’t illustrate that the people who wrote them can’t see past the disability. If you don’t have time to look, then don’t try to ‘prove’ me wrong by saying, ‘not uh’. > [@](#): > > So far, your arguments to this end have been so ridiculous I don’t see why we should continue with them. At least I’m putting forth points instead of saying, “Neener, neener!” > [@](#): > > These two things have nothing to do each other. Saying a trait is undesirable does not mean fetuses with the trait should be aborted. I was just wondering if you believed in selective abortions. Or CI. Because CI is an attempt to correct an undesirable trait. So is selective abortions for incurable things. The only way to ‘cure’ gays is to ‘eradicate’ them, right? It’s not something to be cured. So the only way to ‘cure’ deaf children is to make sure they don’t come into play. Since that isn’t an option yet, the medical community tries to ‘make them as less deaf as possible’. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s wrong. **People who can’t hear are less capable than those who can** , and are lacking a sense that humans are built to have. The position that there’s no such thing as ill health or defects is a silly and self destructive one. I’ve long felt that t **he real point of turning being deaf into a “culture” is to provide job security** for the self appointed advocates of the “Deaf community”; it’s as if advocates for smallpox sufferers had fought the elimination of the disease because they’d be out of a job when the disease was gone. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think the issue mostly revolves around how to treat deaf children. Should they be “cured” if they can, or should they be encouraged to become part of the the Deaf Culture and then decide as adults what to do. **The problem is, the most common cure (cochlear implants) is best performed as young as possible.** > > To me this is just silliness. Humans, as a species, are supposed to be able to hear. **Not being able to hear is a net negative** , even if it might have some positives. Anyone who actively prevents his child from getting medical help is **abusing his child**. > [@Magiver](#): > > I was just driving down the highway today listening to a minute sound associated with the function of the car. I **f I couldn’t hear it then I** wouldn’t know my brakes need to be serviced. > [@Magiver](#): > > **I can’t think of too many jobs that don’t have limitations on work available to deaf people.** > [@Marley23](#): > > By definition it’s a disability, \*\*and can I object to that capitalization of deaf? \*\*It’s not a nationality, ethnic group, or a religion. It’s true there is a deaf culture, and deaf people aren’t required to hate their deafness or want to “fix” it. But let’s not be so sensitive that we can’t acknowledge there’s something they are unable to do. > [@Marley23](#): > > \*\* Saying deaf people have an ability that hearing people do not is a little misleading, I think. It would be better to say they have a _skill_ most hearing people do not.\*\* Everyone who has full use of his hands can communicate with ASL. It’s true that only a small minority do, for obvious reasons. If you say it’s an ability instead of a skill, it makes it sound like you’re disabled if you can’t speak a local language. ^^ except you, **Marley** , can’t neurologically re-wire your brain. Calling prelingual deafness a disability is your centric viewpoint of oral language. > [@Shodan](#): > > \*\* But the average hearing person can do anything that the average deaf person can do.\*\* Except be Deaf. (: The original point of contention was this, from Max: > [@](#): > > I see it as more akin to “blind” or “deaf”. \*\*Blindness and deafness are objectively undesirable traits. \*\*If they invented a pill that gives perfect vision to the blind, it’s perfectly fine to say, “Great! Let’s get this pill to as many blind people as possible.”. Likewise, it’s fine to want to distribute a hearing-granting pill to as many deaf people as possible. It’s not acceptable to mock a blind person for being blind or to mock a deaf person for being deaf, but saying “What are you, blind?” or “What are you, deaf?” to the **unafflicted** are acceptable because it is understood that the intention is not to disparage the blind or the deaf. > > In contrast, being black is not an objectively undesirable trait. Slurs like “nigger” carry with them the assertion that blackness is a bad thing. If they invented a pill that turns black people white, it is not at all okay to say, “Great! Let’s get this pill to as many black people as possible.”. Being black does not carry a negative connotation at all? Being deaf doesn’t carry a negative connotation? By associating ‘deaf’ with disability, it _is_ a negative word. Candid said: > [@](#): > > Being black is not an objective deficiency. Not having one of the five senses is. **Marley** , I said this on page one: The objection is not to the word disability, but to saying, You are disabled because you have undesirable traits and have deficits. It’s the perspective, the context, the intent. I’m pretty sure you get that part. and you don’t get it? Why are you arguing? > [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody in this thread has said deaf people should be forced to do anything. I know I already acknowledged that deaf culture could go away if treatments for deafness continue to improve. While I understand people are attached to their cultures, we don’t need to preserve deafness just to keep the culture going, and we don’t need to say it’s not a disability. And as **Skald** pointed out, being gay is part of an identity. Like being deaf. There’s a gay culture. There’s a Deaf culture. Should we eradicate both on the basis of ‘undesirable’ traits? Because I’m not the only one who saw that argument… > [@Lemur866](#): > > Well, that’s an interesting way of putting it, “a hearing restorative pill”. If you’ve been deaf from birth, then your hearing isn’t getting restored, because you never had it. > > Adults who have been deaf since birth who get cochlear implants typically have very poor success rates, not because the implant doesn’t work, but because their brains can’t process the incoming information. The part of their brain that would normally develop to understand sound gets rewired for other purposes, and that rewiring can’t be undone. FMRIs done on deaf people show that the visual and speech centers of their brains activate when seeing visual information, even when the visual information isn’t signed language. Show the same visual information to a hearing person and only their visual centers activate. > > Anyway, the point is that a magic pill to transform a (from birth) deaf adult into a hearing adult wouldn’t just have to fix the ears, it would have to rewire their brains. Give the same pill to a baby, and he’ll grow up with hearing. But give the pill to an adult, and he becomes a different person. It’s analogous though not perfectly to the hypothetical pill that turns gay people straight. You can’t do it without changing the person in a profound way. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > \*\*Language and sexuality are the two most personal things humans have. \*\* > > I promise you that my identity and my personality is inextricably linked to my sensory processing. > [@Shodan](#): > > Once they start advocating against things that can minimize the impact of their disability? Yes, I would. Not because I am better, but because their lives and the lives of other people\*\*, can be improved.\*\* Which means that your life is better…hmm. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > **Humans are supposed to be able to** hear. Deaf people cannot hear. It is a disability. Humans are also supposed to have sex with members of the opposite sex. Whop de doo da. Deaf people are only disabled when interacting with hearing. Otherwise, they are 400 per cent capable of sustaining themselves. > [@Marley23](#): > > I believe the actual sentiment was that they should not be allowed to prevent their children from **getting medical care that might treat their deafness.** > [@RickJay](#): > > No and no, and you’re avoiding the obvious point; that pointing out that someone has a **physical affliction** of some kind - be it disability or disease - does not mean that one person is intrinsically better than the other in terms of their worth as a human being. > [@Mississippienne](#): > > \*\*Hear their child screaming for help if its injured, drowning, burned, or being attacked by an animal outside their visual range. > > Hear shouted warnings from others if they venture too close to something or someone dangerous. > > Hear the rattle of a rattlesnake as it warns you to back away. > > Communicate easily with the verbal world, i\*\*n a million small or incredibly important ways. > > In all likelihood, my sense of hearing once saved my life in New Orleans. I was walking down the street and heard the pounding sound of feet running up behind me. At that sound, I turned around in time to catch a mugger _swinging a crowbar at the back of my head_.\*\* If I had been deaf,\*\* I would probably have had the back of my skull caved in, been mugged and/or raped and/or left for dead. As it was, I caught the crowbar in my hands and wrestled it away from him, although I was still beaten, he didn’t have a weapon to kill me with. > [@Shin\_Ji](#): > > \*\* > Factor in that native signers have a great deal of difficulty learning to read\*\*\*, and it just gets worse and worse. A parent who would deny their child a helpful medical procedure like cochlear implants is an abusive parent. > [@aruvqan](#): > > \*\*Not to mention that if they did have a hearing child, that poor child would be fucked up \*\*because hearing infants need the act of hearing and responding to babbling and speech to learn to speak. Not getting that stimulation will negatively affect their development. > > So now who would be disabled? A kid growing up unable to respond properly to spoken word and with permanent educational issues because of that? How can that _not_ be abusive? And these deluded women had a fair chance of popping out a hearing kid into a deaf world. :rolleyes: > [@Marley23](#): > > That can cause problems, and I’ve said repeatedly that that’s unfortunate, and that being judgmental about it is wrong. But the big problem isn’t that hearing people are judgmental,\*\* it’s that hearing is a major part of how most people communicate and deal with the world \*\*and deaf people can’t use it. I hope this isn’t intended to imply I’m being judgmental and discriminatory. Something that is a deviation from the norm does not always have to be ‘treated medically’. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Hearing people sometimes wave their hands and arms when they talk, _but when driving, they shouldn’t for obvious safety reasons._ It is possible for the hearing to communicate with each other in a moving vehicle in a totally safe manner. **Can you say the same for the deaf?** > [@Marley23](#): > > \*\*“People of the eye?” Please. This is kind of ridiculous. \*\* Making fun of someone else’s culture and language. That’s not in any way derogatory. :rolleyes: > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > My son was hearing impaired, and I am friends with several deaf persons. While they can function _adequately_ without hearing, \*\*they cannot function _perfectly_ without hearing, because they cannot receive auditory cues while, say, driving. \*\* (Which is not to say that they shouldn’t drive.) > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You are being disingenuous. I specificially noted that a deaf person can drive adequately, but obviously a hearing person has an advantage over a deaf or hearing impaired person, because the latter cannot receive auditory cues as well. I’ve narrowed avoided accidents because another drive was honking at me, and vice versa. **Had I or the other driver been hearing impaired, the accident would have occurred.** > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Deaf and hearing impaired persons aren’t helpless; they should not be thought of or treated as invalids. They can do many things\*\* as well or nearly as well as\*\* the hearing. **But it’s silly to think that they can do everything the hearing can.** If you’re born deaf, you’re never going to be a great singer or musician (with the possible exception of being an excellent drummer), because you’re not getting the auditory feedback. \*\* Deaf persons have somewhat more difficuty achieving written English proficiency (though not insurmountably so) because of the intricate involvement of hearing with learning such a skill. \*\* And so forth. > [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > **I can’t think of many ‘common’ jobs that don’t require the ability to communicate with co-workers or clients or bosses or whoever.** ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/316 "2011-06-10T22:08:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > These two things have nothing to do each other. Saying a trait is undesirable does not mean fetuses with the trait should be aborted. You said that CI is a treatment for being deaf. It’s an accomodation, not a treatment. The only ‘cure’ for gays is to not have gays at all. Selective abortion _is_ a medical procedure. So is CI. The earlier argument was about ‘treating medical problems’ and what constitutes as one. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/317 "2011-06-10T22:12:35Z")
edit/add: Deaf people are only disabled when interacting with hearing BECAUSE OF HEARING PEOPLE’S PERCEPTIONS. Otherwise, they are 400 per cent capable of sustaining themselves. And living and being with hearing people. It’s the hearing people that have the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/318 "2011-06-10T22:12:43Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > At least I’m putting forth points instead of saying, “Neener, neener!” I’m sorry I wasted this much of my time attempting to have a reasonable discussion with you. I won’t be doing it again. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/319 "2011-06-10T22:14:42Z")
**CP** , it’s been a long time, but thank you for your kind words about my son. Anyway… I am a manager in an inside sales office. The people who work for me do virtually all of their work by telephone. They call customers in their sales territories and engage in conversations about their needs, trying to build new business or resolve problems those customers may be having; or they call our company’s billing or technical support or other such departments to resolve problems for their customers. A deaf person, even with the assistance of a relay operator (which I have been, incidentally), cannot do this job. Do you see why? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/320 "2011-06-10T22:16:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sorry I wasted this much of my time attempting to have a reasonable discussion with you. I won’t be doing it again. You obviously don’t understand or appreciate what Deaf people are, what they experience, or whatever. If you want to go ahead and label people based on your perspective and your normative views, go ahead. But I don’t know WHY anyone would INSIST on putting their labels onto another group. Who are you to say what someone is and is not? That is no fucking better than Focus on the Family saying that homosexuality can be cured and that there is a gay agenda devoted to promoting their ‘gay lifestyle’. Fuck that shit. You seem pretty even-handed unless you’re talking to me. Then you argue. But you kept saying things that I was not, I had to repeat myself 10,000 times, and you apparently like to be argumentative with me when I disagree with you. You you don’t have a fucking leg to stand on. At the moment, just a couple of useless ears. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370.md?page=17)