# Persuade me that deafness & hearing impairment are not best thought of as disabilities. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370 "2011-05-26T23:36:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/41 "2011-05-27T15:43:48Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > or [linked](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=609874&highlight=Deaf) for context\* since that appears to be the rules, but since **Marley23** agrees with the OP, maybe it doesn’t apply. There is no such rule. Stop trying to work the refs by complaining about the moderation in the middle of a discussion. We _do_ have a rule against that, and I have explained this to you before. I’m not going to explain again; I’ll skip ahead to warnings. In the future, if you have questions or complaints about moderating, post about them in ATMB or ask a moderator. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/42 "2011-05-27T15:45:58Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > They are wrong. At best, the denial is simply a coping mechanism. At worst, they are scum who would deliberately cripple a child’s ability to communicate with the world at large. This is my opinion as well. And that deaf lesbian couple that deliberatley tried to have a deaf child is fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/43 "2011-05-27T15:48:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I can’t make a full list of them at the moment but I suppose near the top of the list would be _HEARING_. Does that count? It’s somewhat important in **spoken** communication. So deaf are only disabled when you’re trying to talk to them, right? > [@](#): > > See my earlier comment about skills and abilities. I’m not a very good whistler, but if I were motivated, I could learn. My lips and my lungs function. But what you can’t do is completely undo your neurological wiring to be a deaf person. Like I said - to some deaf people, _you_ have the deficit because you can’t ‘see’ what they see or navigate the way they do. > [@](#): > > I’m getting the impression that you want to create a special category for deafness so that it’s separate from disabilities because, um, yes. Why is it a bad thing to categorize deafness as a disability? By definition, it’s the lack of ability to hear. That doesn’t mean anybody needs to be ashamed of it, but it’s starting to sound like people want us to pretend it’s like having green eyes or being left handed. It isn’t. The objection is not to the word disability, but to saying, _You are disabled because you have undesirable traits and have deficits._ It’s the perspective, the context, the intent. I’m pretty sure you get that part. > [@](#): > > Must we turn this into a resume issue? You know how I feel about people projecting their own definitions onto other groups…I was mod’d for that. 🙂 If you don’t know (and by know I mean _know_, not just, “Oh I had had a black neighbor once and he was cool; I’m not racist” type of thing) d/Deaf people, you can’t possibly begin to understand. > [@](#): > > That’s fine, and I think that’s been acknowledged here. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a disability. Never claimed it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/44 "2011-05-27T15:49:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There is no such rule. Stop trying to work the refs by complaining about the moderation in the middle of a discussion. We _do_ have a rule against that, and I have explained this to you before. I’m not going to explain again; I’ll skip ahead to warnings. In the future, if you have questions or complaints about moderating, post about them in ATMB or ask a moderator. Go ahead. I’m not complaining about moderation; I’m talking about your agreement with the OP and the OP’s premise. You happen to be a mod. If you are a mod and you post and argue with other members, it’s bound to come up. I’m not going to _not_ defend myself when people deliberately misrepresent what I say and I’m not going to skirt around someone because they have Moderator under their name. It \*retards \*the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/45 "2011-05-27T15:53:20Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So deaf are only disabled when you’re trying to talk to them, right? And the sightless are “only” disabled when they are trying to see. And the legless are “only” disabled when they are trying to walk. And the mute are “only” disabled when they are trying to talk. When you have a disability, you are disabled. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/46 "2011-05-27T15:54:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite?This makes as much sense as saying that a person who is missing a leg is not the same as a person who is legless. This is a grammatical hoop I am not willing to jump through. No…your analogy works better if I had said, _Not being able to hear is not the same as being deaf._ Just like I can _act stupid_ without _being stupid [all the time]_ or you can have a legal disability without being disabled per law. If you have depression, can I say, “Czarcasm posts on SD and he’s disabled” ? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/47 "2011-05-27T15:55:41Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > But what you can’t do is completely undo your neurological wiring to be a deaf person. Like I said - to some deaf people, _you_ have the deficit because you can’t ‘see’ what they see or navigate the way they do. Again, cite? What is it that a deaf person can do that I can’t? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/48 "2011-05-27T15:55:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the sightless are “only” disabled when they are trying to see. > And the legless are “only” disabled when they are trying to walk. > And the mute are “only” disabled when they are trying to talk. > > When you have a disability, you are disabled. **D** eaf people aren’t trying to hear. You can be disabled in an area without being disabled all the time. Your opinions are kind of sad and close-minded, really. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/49 "2011-05-27T15:57:12Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So deaf are only disabled when you’re trying to talk to them, right? **TriPolar** asked what deaf people can’t do as if there was a debate to be had about it. I said they can’t hear. I am trying in vain to figure out what this comment has to do with anything. > [@](#): > > But what you can’t do is completely undo your neurological wiring to be a deaf person. OK; I didn’t say they could. I think this supports what I said about abilities vs. skills. > [@](#): > > The objection is not to the word disability, but to saying, _You are disabled because you have undesirable traits and have deficits._ It’s the perspective, the context, the intent. I’m pretty sure you get that part. As a matter of fact, I don’t get it. > [@](#): > > If you don’t know (and by know I mean _know_, not just, “Oh I had had a black neighbor once and he was cool; I’m not racist” type of thing) d/Deaf people, you can’t possibly begin to understand. Instead of framing the issue this way - which appears to be playing the “I have deaf friends and you just don’t get it” card - why don’t you explain what everybody else should know and why it’s relevant? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/50 "2011-05-27T15:59:23Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > No…your analogy works better if I had said, _Not being able to hear is not the same as being deaf._ > > Just like I can _act stupid_ without _being stupid [all the time]_ or you can have a legal disability without being disabled per law. > > If you have depression, can I say, “Czarcasm posts on SD and he’s disabled” ? If I am _permanently_ “stupid”(as you so ungraciously put it), then I have a disability, and thus I am disabled. If you have part-time deaf people, or people who are willingly not listening, then you might have a point. And you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/51 "2011-05-27T16:00:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But it’s still accurate. Where does that leave us? At the intersection of Who Cares Avenue and It’s Obvious People are Arguing More Than This Narrow Point St. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/52 "2011-05-27T16:06:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again, cite? What is it that a deaf person can do that I can’t? I never said there was something you can’t explicitly train yourself to do (as one could be sensitized to certain things over time, I presume) but you are completely missing the context, either on purpose to annoy me or out of your own ignorance/determination to force your labels onto other people. Here is a [problems-based hearing perspective](http://www.booizzy.com/jrmilner/portfolio/harvard/t560/project1/plain.html) of education that is a little dated in language but relevant. This person is clearly a student, but gives a good overview of what the Deaf have known for the last hundred years > [@](#): > > . > > In order to better understand how using sign language effects spatial cognition, Ursula Bellugi compared the abilities of deaf children using Chinese Sign Language and hearing children. In particular, she focused on the ability to use spatial analysis to understand dynamic displays. To test this, “sixty nonsense Chinese characters were presented [individually] as rapidly moving patterns of light” to the children with instructions to “watch each point-light display and write down the character underlying the continuous flow of movement.” The deaf children were able to apply their enhanced spatial capacities to this task and were consequently far better at “[distinguishing] between the movements representing strokes and transitional movements” and “[remembering] the sequence and spatial arrangements” (Bellugi, Tzeng, Klima, and Folk, 1989). > > The same tests were also administered to adults in the United States with comparable results: “Again the deaf subjects were significantly better than the hearing … [suggesting] that the enhancement of spatial abilities seen in deaf children may have a lasting effect into adulthood” (Bellugi, O’Grady, Lillio-Martin, Hynes, Van Hoeck, and Corina, 1989). In addition to these tests, numerous other spatial tests have been used to compare the abilities of deaf and hearing children including copying geometric shapes, spatial construction, spatial organization, and facial discrimination. > > While the largest advantage seems to occur with recognizing and interpreting dynamic displays like the nonsense characters, the deaf subjects have also shown a consistent advantage on facial discrimination and spatial construction. [Deaf & Visual-Spatial Skills](http://essays24.com/print/Visual-Spatial-Enhancements-Congenital-Deaf/11450.html) [What happens when you take away their natural language](http://jdsde.oxfordjournals.org/content/1/2/145.abstract) I gave another side to a viewpoint. If you want to argue it, why not go to [AllDeaf.com](http://AllDeaf.com) or to a local Deaf event in your area and see what they say? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/53 "2011-05-27T16:09:13Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > At the intersection of Who Cares Avenue and It’s Obvious People are Arguing More Than This Narrow Point St. Hey, I live just a couple of blocks from there. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/54 "2011-05-27T16:10:45Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Paraplegics do not have a self-sustaining culture. Also, the relative rate of congenital deafness as compared to congenital paraplegia must be far higher since paraplegia is far better associated with accidents in males. I do not think there would be a deaf culture if it was only the result of gradual or sudden hearing loss. I do not think there would be a deaf culture if there were not large numbers of these people with a way to communicate with each other. But if they did, would it make them non-disabled? Does any difference in physiology that results in a group of people forming a “culture” make them non-disabled, where they would be disabled without that culture? > [@](#): > > This brings up an important distinguishing feature about the term disability from the point of view of a person who never had a specific trait. A key component is to know you have lost the ability. To them and to me, if I were in their shoes, using the term disabled for somebody who never had a specific ability is what ‘frankly makes no sense’. In fact, I think well-meaning people constantly referring to my disability would annoy the shit out of me after awhile, make me move out to an island of like-minded people and tell everyone to go to hell. > > In other words. thinking of it as a disability serves no purpose. It places you in the hands of people who design awesome, but still flawed devices to ‘fix’ the problem. This is true despite the fact that sign language is far superior for communication. I get this point, but I think that it’s flawed, because the hearing-abled world “fixes” the problem intermittently all the time by altering our behavior to accommodate. What insisting that it is _not_ a disability does is willfully deny that there is anything undesirable about being deaf, while simultaneously expecting the rest of the world to make accommodations for said person. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/55 "2011-05-27T16:13:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **TriPolar** asked what deaf people can’t do as if there was a debate to be had about it. I said they can’t hear. I am trying in vain to figure out what this comment has to do with anything. I am trying. The point of the Deaf is that _they don’t need hearing_. Kind of like how I don’t need to be over five foot two to function, but I may need a stepstool to get to the top shelf. > [@](#): > > Instead of framing the issue this way - which appears to be playing the “I have deaf friends and you just don’t get it” card - why don’t you explain what everybody else should know and why it’s relevant? I\* am\* trying, but some will be hellbent on disagreeing with me just to be ‘right’. What am I supposed to say, exactly? The best I can do is ask for others to be open in light of what I’ve pointed out, to not try to project their wants and needs unto a population with different wants and needs, and hey, if you are really interested, go find out. Read a book, ask Deaf people, whatever. It won’t kill the hearing world if deaf define themselves differently. It _will_ kill the deaf world if you try to ‘fix’ the Deaf via cochlear implants (without support), restricting ASL, focusing on speechreading, etc. That approach does make deaf people disabled. [Not everyone has always lived in your hearing world](http://deafness.about.com/cs/featurearticles/a/marthasvineyard.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/56 "2011-05-27T16:16:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If I am _permanently_ “stupid”(as you so ungraciously put it), then I have a disability, and thus I am disabled. If you have part-time deaf people, or people who are willingly not listening, then you might have a point. > And you don’t. Donno about you, but I’d rather be deaf than stupid. Hm…part-time deaf people…so what about people who use hearing aids that allow them to ‘hear’ at certain decibels? Are they part-time disabled? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/57 "2011-05-27T16:20:12Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I am trying. The point of the Deaf is that _they don’t need hearing_. But they _did_ need the invention of sign language, braille, closed captioning for television and movies, interpreters when they venture outside their own community, special devices for their telephones, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/58 "2011-05-27T16:20:41Z")
_Sigh_ When you look at a Deaf person and think, “Damn. Glad I don’t have that undesirable trait!” you’re going to come off as a jerk. Or how about, “This is my friend Jack. He’s deaf.” Maybe, “Yeah, he’s pretty smart for a deaf guy!” **But** if you look at a Deaf person and think, “Damn. If I were deaf tomorrow, I couldn’t function very well,” that is perfectly reasonable. This is the difference in viewing deaf as ‘different than I am’ as opposed to ‘disabled/lesser than/inadequate’. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/59 "2011-05-27T16:22:26Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So deaf are only disabled when you’re trying to talk to them, right? Or listen to music, the spoken art form (poetry readings, rap, anything without closed captioning, etc.) hear police sirens, car horns or other warnings of potential danger, communicate without direct line of sight, etc. What’s the situation for deaf pilots? Hearing provides data about the world. There’s fish that can sense electrical fields. Completely natural to them. Humans never had this sense, our distance fishy ancestors did, but it evolved into something else. Compared to electric field sensing fish I’m disabled, and jealous. Having that sense could open up so many things to perceive about the world to me. Alas, I and the rest of humanity lack it. If there was technology to give it to me. I’d take in a heart beat. If there was technology so my potential future kids could have it, but not me. I wouldn’t hesitate. They could know my spoken\visual world, but they’d have a world of things I wouldn’t even know how to imagine to learn, grow from, and appreciate. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/60 "2011-05-27T16:26:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But they _did_ need the invention of sign language, WOAH! Sign language is [naturally occurring](http://www.columbia.edu/~as1038/L02-sign-language.html) among the deaf just as much as speaking is to us. In a message board full of lingophiles, I hope you understand that the basic functions of signed languages are the same as spoken ones. Signed languages have accents, slang, tone, and they change over time. > [@](#): > > braille, Wrong group. > [@](#): > > closed captioning for television and movies, Having a TV is hardly a requirement for life, eh? > [@](#): > > interpreters when they venture outside their own community That’s the norm thing I was talking about. > [@](#): > > special devices for their telephones, etc. Things that were invented by deaf for deaf…yeah. I never said anything about not having _disadvantages_. Different idea…just like people who are typical tend to view medical disabilities as ‘degrees of disability/impairment’, so do people with said disability. Please note my point: You can have a disability without being disabled - it doesn’t have to disable you. It’s not petty semantics. It is just a less ignorant way of looking at things. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370.md?page=4)