# Persuade me that deafness & hearing impairment are not best thought of as disabilities. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370 "2011-05-26T23:36:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/81 "2011-05-27T17:13:00Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > The distinction is not clear. Some people literally cannot process written language. That doesn’t help your case. People who can’t read for neurological reasons are learning disabled. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/82 "2011-05-27T17:14:28Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > The distinction is not clear. Some people literally cannot process written language. But deaf people can read - and communicate. Fluently. IF you literally cannot process written language - in other words, are physically incapable of learning to do so - then you HAVE A DISABILITY. If you are physically unable to receive or interpret input from one of mankind’s basic senses - you HAVE A DISABILITY. I noticed you acknowledged that fact earlier - that deafness was a disability - so why the hell are you even in this thread? To argue deaf people are just as valuable as hearing people? No one’s arguing the opposite! ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/83 "2011-05-27T17:15:30Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > WOAH! Oh, Jesus fucking Christ. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/84 "2011-05-27T17:18:20Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Keep it in the other thread; it’ll get tiresome having to refute you in two places at once. My speculative claim was presented in response to one of your own - IE that a hearing restorative pill would NOT be taken by millions and millions of people. Well, that’s an interesting way of putting it, “a hearing restorative pill”. If you’ve been deaf from birth, then your hearing isn’t getting restored, because you never had it. Adults who have been deaf since birth who get cochlear implants typically have very poor success rates, not because the implant doesn’t work, but because their brains can’t process the incoming information. The part of their brain that would normally develop to understand sound gets rewired for other purposes, and that rewiring can’t be undone. FMRIs done on deaf people show that the visual and speech centers of their brains activate when seeing visual information, even when the visual information isn’t signed language. Show the same visual information to a hearing person and only their visual centers activate. Anyway, the point is that a magic pill to transform a (from birth) deaf adult into a hearing adult wouldn’t just have to fix the ears, it would have to rewire their brains. Give the same pill to a baby, and he’ll grow up with hearing. But give the pill to an adult, and he becomes a different person. It’s analogous though not perfectly to the hypothetical pill that turns gay people straight. You can’t do it without changing the person in a profound way. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/85 "2011-05-27T17:19:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think most people here understand that, but it’s true that people who don’t have disabilities can lose sight of this. Fair point. You can survive without hearing the same way you can survive without sight, smell, the ability to walk, and a lot of other things. Disability is such a catch-all. It’s basically saying you’re restricted from something. When the definition is so big it becomes necessary to make some distinctions. > [@](#): > > Nobody in this thread has said deaf people should be forced to do anything. Except that their parenting choices should be restricted. But that aside, deaf people have been forced to do things for decades. And still are, especially in ed. > [@](#): > > I know I already acknowledged that deaf culture could go away if treatments for deafness continue to improve. Any culture goes away when the people are gone. If no one were deaf, it would be a thing of the past…but I can’t see that happening. _Ever._ > [@](#): > > While I understand people are attached to their cultures, we don’t need to preserve deafness just to keep the culture going, and we don’t need to say it’s not a disability. The rest of this is basically a pedagogical dispute. I’m sure cochlear implant technology will improve, but there’s no reason not to teach people the best tools to handle any hearing problems they have. I believe in a full toolbox…but I don’t believe in forcing deaf people into acting like hearing people. It’s horribly cruel. > [@](#): > > So teach people support techniques to go along with the implants. I’ve never heard of restricting ASL; I think it’s become more common for people who aren’t deaf to learn it. (My middle brother took it in college for a semester or two.) [Restricting ASL has been the movement for decades.](http://www.deafexpressions.4t.com/custom_2.html) Now instead of ‘speech reading’ and ‘English sign’, educators and doctors are moving towards implants and amplified devices to ‘correct’ deafness. > [@](#): > > No, _their hearing disability makes them disabled_. I am sure there are better and worse strategies and coping mechanisms for dealing with that, and we should keep those in mind. This thread started because I pointed out that many deaf don’t see themselves as having deficits. Deficit implies you may have lost something or that you miss what you don’t have. > [@](#): > > In other words, being obnoxious and patronizing is bad. Thank you for pointing this out. SOMEONE has to. > [@](#): > > Has anyone here said deaf people are lesser human beings, or that they themselves (as opposed to their senses of hearing) are inadequate? It’s been hinted. \*They can’t hear music. They need adaptations. They don’t know danger signs like police sirens. They don’t… They can’t… It is better to… \* Ideas like, “Well, _I_ couldn’t/wouldn’t want to” or “Sound is what makes us human!” is what gives that impression. Really, when you constantly say to a group of people over and over again, “I’m trying to fix you and make you better!” that’s basically saying, “I am better than you.” ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/86 "2011-05-27T17:20:12Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Well, that’s an interesting way of putting it, “a hearing restorative pill”. If you’ve been deaf from birth, then your hearing isn’t getting restored, because you never had it. > > Adults who have been deaf since birth who get cochlear implants typically have very poor success rates, not because the implant doesn’t work, but because their brains can’t process the incoming information. The part of their brain that would normally develop to understand sound gets rewired for other purposes, and that rewiring can’t be undone. FMRIs done on deaf people show that the visual and speech centers of their brains activate when seeing visual information, even when the visual information isn’t signed language. Show the same visual information to a hearing person and only their visual centers activate. > > Anyway, the point is that a magic pill to transform a (from birth) deaf adult into a hearing adult wouldn’t just have to fix the ears, it would have to rewire their brains. Give the same pill to a baby, and he’ll grow up with hearing. But give the pill to an adult, and he becomes a different person. It’s analogous though not perfectly to the hypothetical pill that turns gay people straight. You can’t do it without changing the person in a profound way. I think sexual identity is a little more closely linked to who we are as people than sensory processing. But sure, in large part, you’re right. So? Magic pill. Fixy-fixy. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/87 "2011-05-27T17:22:14Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Ideas like, “Well, _I_ couldn’t/wouldn’t want to” or “Sound is what makes us human!” is what gives that impression. Really, when you constantly say to a group of people over and over again, “I’m trying to fix you and make you better!” that’s basically saying, “I am better than you.” And “I didn’t want to experience music anyway” is basically “Those grapes were probably sour.” ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/88 "2011-05-27T17:22:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That doesn’t help your case. People who can’t read for neurological reasons are learning disabled. I was pointing out the complexities of disability - lack of knowledge, lack of ability, lack of adaptation. It’s just something I see in the education field. Learning disorder, cognitive disorder, mental disorder, etc., are all different. There are things you can’t cure, but there are things you can overcome. > [@CandidGamera](#): > > IF you literally cannot process written language - in other words, are physically incapable of learning to do so - then you HAVE A DISABILITY. If you are physically unable to receive or interpret input from one of mankind’s basic senses - you HAVE A DISABILITY. > > I noticed you acknowledged that fact earlier - that deafness was a disability - so why the hell are you even in this thread? To argue deaf people are just as valuable as hearing people? No one’s arguing the opposite! I am in this thread because I was misrepresented in the OP. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/89 "2011-05-27T17:23:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Man does not naturally travel at 65 mph. To do this we need a special device called a “car”. Now, if I need added devices to this car like a wheelchair ramp and/or hand-operated brakes and accelerator, does the fact that this is already a special device negate the fact that I am disabled? Bear in mind that a hand-operated accelerator isn’t inherently more special than a foot-operated one. It’ s just less common. I’m not arguing for a radical position. Like I said earlier, I do think deafness is a disability (and I think that someone who uses hand controls in a car probably is too). But on some level these are gut reactions. The point I guess I’m trying to make is that I think it’s harder than people here are suggesting to identify how it is that we classify some differences among people as disabilities and some as just, well, differences. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/90 "2011-05-27T17:24:34Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I think sexual identity is a little more closely linked to who we are as people than sensory processing. But sure, in large part, you’re right. So? Magic pill. Fixy-fixy. Language and sexuality are the two most personal things humans have. I promise you that my identity and my personality is inextricably linked to my sensory processing. > [@CandidGamera](#): > > And “I didn’t want to experience music anyway” is basically “Those grapes were probably sour.” You are just not one to be reasoned with. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/91 "2011-05-27T17:24:36Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I am in this thread because I was misrepresented in the OP. Duh. Misrepresented with that verbatim quote? Yeah, good luck with that theory, Newt. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/92 "2011-05-27T17:25:30Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I think this is a horrible analogy. The rabbits in Strawberry’s warren could leave, but they don’t because it’s comfortable. Deaf people can’t just decide to stop being deaf. Right. And, in some cases, therefore try to convince themselves that being deaf is really a great thing. Just like being kept as food was great. > [@](#): > > A deaf person insisting that deafness isn’t a disability is a hyperbolic way of insisting that they’re just as good as anyone else. You’re going to look them in the eye and say, “No you’re not as good as me, I can hear and you can’t”? Once they start advocating against things that can minimize the impact of their disability? Yes, I would. Not because I am better, but because their lives and the lives of other people, can be improved. > [@](#): > > Are you going to sit down with the guy in the wheelchair who proudly insists he can do everything anyone else can, and explain to him that no, he really can’t and he’s deluding himself and in denial, and he should change his attitude and face facts and stop focusing on all the things he can do and start focusing on the things he can’t? When a procedure becomes available that sometimes helps people in wheelchairs regain a limited ability to walk, and he turns it down because it will destroy his wheelchair culture and he would rather have his children use wheelchairs than walk, then it is the time to start explaining. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/93 "2011-05-27T17:25:48Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You are just not one to be reasoned with. Only by the reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/94 "2011-05-27T17:26:24Z")
Humans are supposed to be able to hear. Deaf people cannot hear. It is a disability. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/95 "2011-05-27T17:27:54Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Bear in mind that a hand-operated accelerator isn’t inherently more special than a foot-operated one. It’ s just less common. > > I’m not arguing for a radical position. Like I said earlier, I do think deafness is a disability (and I think that someone who uses hand controls in a car probably is too). But on some level these are gut reactions. > > The point I guess I’m trying to make is that I think it’s harder than people here are suggesting to identify how it is that we classify some differences among people as disabilities and some as just, well, differences. Someone once pointed out that restricting women in the military was so silly for modern times. “In a world where missions are fought from aircraft, who cares if someone with a vagina is flying? It doesn’t take a dick to drop bombs.” Sorry for the language, but this thread reminds me of that conversation. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/96 "2011-05-27T17:29:12Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Misrepresented with that verbatim quote? Yeah, good luck with that theory, Newt. Look at the thread title, jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/97 "2011-05-27T17:35:26Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Misrepresented with that verbatim quote? Yeah, good luck with that theory, Newt. Dial it back a notch. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Look at the thread title, jerk. Personal insults are not allowed in this forum. You’ve been told this before, and I’m giving you a formal warning here. Realizing that **CitizenPained** feels misrepresented by the OP, this is still a discussion of issues, not a personal fight. Everyone needs to remember what forum we’re in here. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/98 "2011-05-27T17:38:59Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Look at the thread title, jerk. The thread title isn’t about you. Your comment in the other thread inspired a question in his mind, so he decided to start a thread about it. He specifically excised your name from the quote so as to avoid picking a fight. If he took the wrong meaning from your quote, all you have to do is pop in, and say “Hey, I didn’t mean to imply deafness wasn’t a disability - just that..” blah blah, whatever. Then your honor would be satisfied and we could get on with answering his dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/99 "2011-05-27T17:43:21Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Disability is such a catch-all. It’s basically saying you’re restricted from something. Yes. And they are. They’re physically not capable of hearing. It doesn’t make them lesser human beings, doesn’t mean they should be patronized to, and doesn’t mean they should be forced to try medical interventions they don’t want. But “disability” means they are not able to do something, and it’s accurate. > [@](#): > > When the definition is so big it becomes necessary to make some distinctions. Distinctions are fine. Using tenuous logic to carve out special exceptions because we don’t like the implications of the definition is not fine. > [@](#): > > Except that their parenting choices should be restricted. This is a very vague paraphrase. I believe the actual sentiment was that they should not be allowed to prevent their children from getting medical care that might treat their deafness. > [@](#): > > Any culture goes away when the people are gone. If no one were deaf, it would be a thing of the past…but I can’t see that happening. _Ever._ That’s very unlikely. But I wasn’t the one who was concerned about what would happen to deaf culture. > [@](#): > > Now instead of ‘speech reading’ and ‘English sign’, educators and doctors are moving towards implants and amplified devices to ‘correct’ deafness. In other words, they’re trying to fix the disability instead of forcing people to use other means to cope with it. That’s not wrong of them. If deaf people are being denied some tools that would help them, then that’s wrong. But I’d hope that’s a problem that will fade as implant technology improves. > [@](#): > > This thread started because I pointed out that many deaf don’t see themselves as having deficits. Deficit implies you may have lost something or that you miss what you don’t have. I’m not sure it _does_ imply that, but you’re right - I am sure deaf people aren’t just sitting around waiting for someone to give them hearing. > [@](#): > > SOMEONE has to. Actually I’m pretty sure everyone here already understood this. That’s the problem- you implied they didn’t. > [@](#): > > It’s been hinted. No, it has not. The things you’re objecting to are factually true, and it’s entirely your own interpretation that they’re intended as a comment on deaf people. It’s true that deaf people can’t hear music. They can experience music - I remember attending a concert years ago and standing near a man who was evidently deaf; he was holding a large balloon and was feeling the vibrations through the skin of the balloon. But he wasn’t hearing it. More importantly, all of that stuff was stated in response to the following question: > [@TriPolar](#): > > Those of you who insist that hearing problems are a disability please explain the great number of things such disabled people can’t do? They were not intended to deprecate deaf people. They were answers to a direct question about what you can’t do if you can’t hear. > [@](#): > > Ideas like, “Well, _I_ couldn’t/wouldn’t want to” or “Sound is what makes us human!” is what gives that impression. Really, when you constantly say to a group of people over and over again, “I’m trying to fix you and make you better!” that’s basically saying, “I am better than you.” Nobody said “sound is what makes us human” or anything like it. Saying you couldn’t live with deafness or wouldn’t want to might be impolite or even obnoxious (did anyone say it in this thread?) but it’s not a statement of superiority. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/100 "2011-05-27T17:44:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Dial it back a notch. > Personal insults are not allowed in this forum. You’ve been told this before, and I’m giving you a formal warning here. > > Realizing that **CitizenPained** feels misrepresented by the OP, this is still a discussion of issues, not a personal fight. Everyone needs to remember what forum we’re in here. I knew you’d do that. 😉 But I’m done with the thread - why sit through abuse so others can feel dominant? I put forth a point and clarified the OP and someone calling me names or me getting a warning doesn’t negate anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370.md?page=6)