# Persuade me that deafness & hearing impairment are not best thought of as disabilities. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370 "2011-05-26T23:36:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/161 "2011-06-01T15:54:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Did you not read what you were quoting? I did, and > [@](#): > > \*\* > but if your view is “let nature take its course and don’t interfere,” I don’t think you’ve thought it through. > \*\* was the condescending part. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/162 "2011-06-01T16:02:04Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > was the condescending part. And where in that post did you get “I’m hearing and I know things you don’t?” I said I didn’t think **justanotherdeaf** had thought through a specific idea (‘don’t interfere with the raising of deaf children, let nature take its course’). ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/163 "2011-06-01T16:03:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And where in that post did you get “I’m hearing and I know things you don’t?” I said I didn’t think **justanotherdeaf** had thought through a specific idea (‘don’t interfere with the raising of deaf children, let nature take its course’). I took to mean as, “Kids don’t need your ‘treatments’ and Deaf parents don’t need your ‘ideas’.” “Let nature take its course” sounded like “let them be bilingual and happy kids”. I’m pretty sure **deaf** has given it more thought than you and I. Being Deaf and all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/164 "2011-06-01T16:08:55Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I took to mean as, “Kids don’t need your ‘treatments’ and Deaf parents don’t need your ‘ideas’.” My opinion on that would depend on how it’s supposed to play out in the real world. Now how does it justify that ludicrous paraphrase of my post? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/165 "2011-06-01T21:16:50Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Not to mention that if they did have a hearing child, that poor child would be fucked up because hearing infants need the act of hearing and responding to babbling and speech to learn to speak. Not getting that stimulation will negatively affect their development. > > So now who would be disabled? A kid growing up unable to respond properly to spoken word and with permanent educational issues because of that? How can that _not_ be abusive? And these deluded women had a fair chance of popping out a hearing kid into a deaf world. :rolleyes: So…deaf people shouldn’t have deaf kids and they shouldn’t have hearing kids either? Sucks to be them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/166 "2011-06-02T00:50:10Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Not to mention that if they did have a hearing child, that poor child would be fucked up because hearing infants need the act of hearing and responding to babbling and speech to learn to speak. Not getting that stimulation will negatively affect their development. > > So now who would be disabled? A kid growing up unable to respond properly to spoken word and with permanent educational issues because of that? How can that _not_ be abusive? And these deluded women had a fair chance of popping out a hearing kid into a deaf world. :rolleyes: Not to mention learning that their parents were disappointed that he didn’t turn out to be deaf. (The whole “a deaf child would be a ‘special’ blessing.” Ouch!) That’s sad. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/167 "2011-06-02T01:07:15Z")
Note: I’M not saying that deaf people shouldn’t have children. Just that I found that particular case distastful, if only because of the parents’ attitudes. Of course deaf people can be parents. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/168 "2011-06-02T02:10:37Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Not to mention learning that their parents were disappointed that he didn’t turn out to be deaf. (The whole “a deaf child would be a ‘special’ blessing.” Ouch!) That’s sad. Would you like your child to be born surrounded by a different language than you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/169 "2011-06-02T02:41:23Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Would you like your child to be born surrounded by a different language than you? I would like my child to have every single advantage possible. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/170 "2011-06-02T02:58:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I would like my child to have every single advantage possible. So if you were deaf, would that mean you’d be obligated to not have children? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/171 "2011-06-02T03:25:56Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So if you were deaf, would that mean you’d be obligated to not have children? That does not follow. If you embrace that logic, then the fact that you are not a billionaire should restrain you from having kids, since they would not have “the advantage” of enormous wealth. Why don’t we refrain from getting outlandish, here? (Actually, the “surrounded by a different language” question is not all that great, either. Hundreds of thousands of people immigrate to new countries where their children will be surrounded by people speaking a different language than their parents, (and nothing prevents a deaf parent from raising their children to sign–I suspect that most do).) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/172 "2011-06-02T03:47:24Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So if you were deaf, would that mean you’d be obligated to not have children? You would do better to just quote me directly instead of making up viewpoints and attributing them to me without my permission. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/173 "2011-06-02T04:04:13Z")
I didn’t make up a viewpoint and attribute it to you, I asked you a question. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/174 "2011-06-02T04:07:01Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I didn’t make up a viewpoint and attribute it to you, I asked you a question. You made an extremely leading question that could not, in _any_ way, be inferred from my statement. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/175 "2011-06-02T04:13:28Z")
Weren’t we talking about whether it was OK for deaf parents to try to raise hearing children? And whether it was OK for deaf parents to try to raise deaf children? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/176 "2011-06-02T07:10:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That does not follow. If you embrace that logic, then the fact that you are not a billionaire should restrain you from having kids, since they would not have “the advantage” of enormous wealth. > > Why don’t we refrain from getting outlandish, here? > > (Actually, the “surrounded by a different language” question is not all that great, either. Hundreds of thousands of people immigrate to new countries where their children will be surrounded by people speaking a different language than their parents, (and nothing prevents a deaf parent from raising their children to sign–I suspect that most do).) It isn’t like immigrants and children. _Everything they hear_, you cannot. That means that your communication is going to be one of two things: Written or signed. Pretty much all deaf parents who sign will sign with their kids. I can’t think of why not. For most children of deaf, it’s their first language. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/177 "2011-06-02T07:13:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > (Actually, the “surrounded by a different language” question is not all that great, either. Hundreds of thousands of people immigrate to new countries where their children will be surrounded by people speaking a different language than their parents, (and nothing prevents a deaf parent from raising their children to sign–I suspect that most do).) It isn’t like immigrants and children. _Everything they hear_, you cannot. That means that your communication is going to be one of two things: Written or signed. Pretty much all deaf parents who sign will sign with their kids. I can’t think of why not. For most children of deaf, it’s their first language. I’m not sure how I feel about designer deaf babies as that’s a kind of eugenics that seems to be flipped on its back, but I see why parents would want that. If I were deaf, I’d probably be very happy with a deaf child. (I may feel differently if I had a bad time of being deaf, didn’t learn ASL, couldn’t get a job, or something very terrible. But as my life is now: I’d be happy.) Kind of like how hearing parents go, “Oh shit!” when they find they have a deaf child: You want to share the same world. But then again, I don’t see deaf people as constantly _disabled_. I view them as people who have a different linguistic world that I do. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/178 "2011-06-02T08:40:33Z")
> [@](#): > > I think a couple of people objected to the idea of deaf people refusing to have their children treated. (That point of view seems like an oversimplification at this point.) Huh? Their children treated for what? It’s not like they have diabetes or cancer or kidney failure. Besides even Deaf families are getting their kids CIs now in some cases. It’s just that they don’t pursue hearing. They do not think of themselves as “hearing impaired.” It’s just like the way a female isn’t Y chromosome or penis impaired. > [@](#): > > That’s cruel and stupid. Of course you also made it sound like something that is going on now and not generations ago. I think there is reason to believe people know better now. Deafness is much better understood, and so are a lot of other conditions. The physical beating may not be going on, no…but there’s still a lot of mental abuse going on…oh lord. Look at a copy of Volta Voices (the magazine for the AG Bell families) and look at the ads for auditory verbal programs and oral schools…look at the language. In a lot of ways the old lady oral teachers in oxfords and long skirts, are still there. On the other hand, I get my hearing aids through Clarke School for the Deaf. Even back in the 80’s and 90’s ASL was demonized. Now they accept that a lot of oral kids will learn ASL as a second language, or go off to NTID for college. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/179 "2011-06-02T10:51:37Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Huh? Their children treated for what? Deafness. That was pretty obvious, wasn’t it? > [@](#): > > It’s not like they have diabetes or cancer or kidney failure. It’s not a disease, no. It’s a condition that can cause a lot of problems and its effects can be treated medically to varying degrees. > [@](#): > > Besides even Deaf families are getting their kids CIs now in some cases. It’s just that they don’t pursue hearing. Can I ask what the point of that is? > [@](#): > > They do not think of themselves as “hearing impaired.” It’s just like the way a female isn’t Y chromosome or penis impaired. I understand that, although I think this analogy is awful. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370/180 "2011-06-02T11:11:52Z")
**Marley** , you may never understand if you’re not friends with any Deaf. Deaf people function perfectly well without hearing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/persuade-me-that-deafness-hearing-impairment-are-not-best-thought-of-as-disabilities/583370.md?page=10)