# Perturbed over Passover rules **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079 "2011-04-20T14:29:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/61 "2011-04-21T17:18:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It depends. Wheat, rye, barley, oats, and spelt are all subject to the 18 minute rule. Ashkenazic Jews treat rice, corn, peanuts, and vegetables from the pea family as forbidden. Roti derives (so far as I know) from wheat flour and would be subject to the same 18 minute rule. Naan, if unleavened, has the same source and would be treated the same way. Corn tortillas would be fine outside the Ashkenazic community. Why the Ashkenazic prohibition on rice, corn, peanuts and peas? Is it because they’re not mentioned at all in the Bible (since they’re not native to that area), so better safe than sorry as far as kosher goes? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/62 "2011-04-21T17:38:34Z")
Religious insanity is pricey, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/63 "2011-04-21T17:55:29Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > Why the Ashkenazic prohibition on rice, corn, peanuts and peas? Is it because they’re not mentioned at all in the Bible (since they’re not native to that area), so better safe than sorry as far as kosher goes? Not exactly, but close. The prohibition arises from the principle of _ma’arit ayin_, “the appearance of the eye.” It refers to prohibiting a practice that is technically permitted but appears to an observer to be forbidden. For example, there’s no problem if, in walking on the Sabbath, one’s clothes get wet from water on the road. But you cannot hang them up to dry where others might see, because it might give the impression that you had laundered clothes on the sabbath, which is forbidden. In this case, because legumes and corn can be ground up into flour, it might appear that one was using _chametz_ during Passover, so they are forbidden for that reason. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/64 "2011-04-22T04:14:56Z")
I attended seder at Bob and Stephanie’s. As I was the only one who could really read Hebrew (and by that I mean sound it out from written letters, not actually understand what I’m reading), the only Hebrew was a few short blessings. The rest of the ceremony was in English. The meaning of every symbol and action was explained. We rejoiced that we were free and that Israel endures. I bought Mountain Dew Throwback without a KP sticker. The label says sugar instead of corn syrup. That’s good enough for me. I did go to a different market (known for its large kosher section- complete with kosher butcher) for some of my Passover needs. For example, no other market in the area sells Fox’s vanilla and black cherry syrups. Everything I bought was a _choice_. I could have just bought a sack of unsweetened cocoa powder and made my own treats. I have noticed that while KP cakes are wildly expensive, KP cake mixes are about a buck (and usually come with baking pan included). Sadly, they were out of mixes. Still, I could have bought a box of matzoh, or a can of matzoh meal and eggs and followed a recipe. I just find it to not be worth the time and trouble. Finally, as others have said, I could just do without. Though it often seems like it, I do not actually need chocolate to live. The only Jewish holiday I find depressing is Yom Kippur. You get to think about all the crappy and cruel things you’ve done to people over the last year. Plus, you get a long reminder about how death waits for us all. Positively cheerful. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/65 "2011-04-22T11:52:15Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > So then is it acceptable to eat any type of unleavened bread and still be kosher for Passover? If you make it yourself, so you know it was less than 18 minutes between mixing and baking, could you eat roti and naan or tortillas or any other non-leavened breads? Provided all ingredients were kosher, the process was kosher (that 18 minute water-to-baking rule, for example), and it wasn’t made on the Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) yes, that would be kosher. Although there are some ultra-Orthodox who would still be dubious. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/66 "2011-04-22T13:22:55Z")
Where does the 18 minute time-limit come from? It’s not like they had watches back in those days to accurately time that sort of thing with. Is it a “modern” development? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/67 "2011-04-22T14:40:24Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Where does the 18 minute time-limit come from? It’s not like they had watches back in those days to accurately time that sort of thing with. Is it a “modern” development? A combination of a general observation that fermentation would begin at roughly twenty minutes after water is added to wheat flour, combined with a bit of numerology – the number ‘18’ has some significance in meaning because of the letters used to spell it. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/68 "2011-04-22T15:54:24Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Matzah is unleavened bread. Matzah is bread that has not yet been leavened. Before the bread rises, you can consider it Matzah. Matzah is made from wheat flour, same as bread. How many ways should I type it out before we all come to accept that Matzah = subcategory of bread. It’s just that you can’t bake it for more than 18 minutes (a coincidently symbolic number in Judaism) lest it become bread bread. Never mind that you throw those sponge and marble cakes into the oven for an hour. That’s all cool. But 18 minutes is the limit on matzah bread. No, no, no! The time limit of 18 minutes is how long the dough can be moist before it goes in the oven. And it need not be from wheat flour. _/me munches on spelt matzah_ > [@](#): > > Ok, so matzah meal is a-ok, but bread is bad, even though matzah is bread. Cool. Got it. But the point is the leavening, right? Bread has two subclasses: Leavened (_hametz_) and unleavened (_matzah_). “Leavened” is defined in Pesach rules as grain that has been damp for 18 minutes or more, at which point it has begun to ferment. > [@](#): > > Do I even have time to discuss corn in here? I know that not every sect of Judaism adheres to the corn (and possibly legume) rules, but seriously? Corn is NOT wheat. I should be held to a standard of eating no corn because my ancestors were too stupid to figure out between completely different plants with completely different properties and tastes? Last Pesach I learned that corn is prohibited in Pesach in the Eastern European (Ashkenazi) tradition because of the stupidity of the Ashkenazi rabbis and the German language: The English / German word for maize is _Korn_. The German word for grain (wheat, barley, etc.) is ALSO _Korn_. Fermented _Korn_ is bad. Raw _Korn_ may become fermented, therefore it is bad. Therefore, maize being _Korn_ is bad. :dubious:😕:eek::mad: ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/69 "2011-04-22T15:57:30Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Agreed 100%. Culturally I’m a Jew. Raised a Jew. My family used to slaughter lamb for Jacob’s family. Yes, that Jacob. Don’t ask how I know. People talk. My first thought on reading this was: Holy cow, you were feeding the werewolves? Yup, I’d be going to hell if I weren’t a buddhist. As it is, it’s yet another 15 minutes as a scorpion. > [@VunderBob](#): > > [Agreeing with **CKDH**] > > There is a New Testament incident where Jesus told some Pharisees that “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath”. A similar concept is the whole issue of spirit versus letter of the (secular) law. (I’d be careful using NT points to illustrate things having to do with Judaism. It can go horribly awry. I’d link the Dio pitting, but I’m afraid of having it rise from the dead.) ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/70 "2011-04-22T15:58:17Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Honestly, I don’t have a problem with people who keep kosher (or do KfP.) If you don’t want to eat delicious cheeseburgers it’s no skin off my nose. It’s mostly the absurd rituals and guilt that I find annoying. A passover seder would actually be an enjoyable dinner party if it weren’t for all the fucking Hebrew. > [@cwthree](#): > > Me neither, but only because even the low-Hebrew Hagaddah is still (to me) insanely tedious. If the Seder is run such that the telling of the liberation from slavery is tedious, the people running the Seder should rework it. That’s the main point and, when done right, very engaging. :j ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/71 "2011-04-22T16:04:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The only Jewish holiday I find depressing is Yom Kippur. You get to think about all the crappy and cruel things you’ve done to people over the last year. Plus, you get a long reminder about how death waits for us all. Positively cheerful. Yom Kippur should be solemn but not to the point of depression. It’s the annual soul cleansing, the _kapper_ - the lid closing up last year’s screw-ups and resolving to do better in the coming year. Tisha b’Av on the other hand is supposed to be depressing. ETA: I agree with **Alessan**. Sephardi food \>\>\> Ashkenazi food. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/72 "2011-04-22T16:24:57Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Last Pesach I learned that corn is prohibited in Pesach in the Eastern European (Ashkenazi) tradition because of the stupidity of the Ashkenazi rabbis and the German language: > The English / German word for maize is _Korn_. > The German word for grain (wheat, barley, etc.) is ALSO _Korn_. > Fermented _Korn_ is bad. Raw _Korn_ may become fermented, therefore it is bad. > Therefore, maize being _Korn_ is bad. > :dubious:😕:eek::mad: Uh huh. And this explains how the prohibition against legumes? The German word for peanuts is _karley_,maybe? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/73 "2011-04-22T22:43:08Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > Why the Ashkenazic prohibition on rice, corn, peanuts and peas? Is it because they’re not mentioned at all in the Bible (since they’re not native to that area), so better safe than sorry as far as kosher goes? See: [Why can’t you put cornstarch in your Passover cheesecake? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1440/why-cant-you-put-cornstarch-in-your-passover-cheesecake) > [@VunderBob](#): > > There is a New Testament incident where Jesus told some Pharisees that “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath”. A similar concept is the whole issue of spirit versus letter of the (secular) law. Well… I prefer to note that there is a talmudic decision that the seder should be conducted in the language of the participants. Thus, many of the ancient traditional readings are in Aramaic rather than Hebrew. And holding a seder in English (or the family’s native language) would be absolutely acceptable. Of course, we’re now moving towards Friday night, so we won’t have posts from Jews who are sabbath-observant … ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/74 "2011-04-23T02:11:09Z")
As someone who can’t keep kosher for more then 24 hours, I have much respect for those that can for a week (let alone year-round). ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/75 "2011-04-23T11:09:09Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Of course, we’re now moving towards Friday night, so we won’t have posts from Jews who are sabbath-observant … Tradition! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/76 "2011-04-25T01:46:43Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > As someone who made a fairly clean break with my insanely religious family members, I find it hard to understand why others don’t. Respect. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Here, I think my six year old can answer this: > > Matzoh reminds us that when the Jews left the slavery of Egypt they had no time to bake their bread. They took the raw dough on their journey and baked it in the hot desert sun into hard crackers called matzoh. > > 😉 > > Passover can be one of those most joyful times of the year even for a non-observant Jew. Try it next year. Try without grumbling and do it happily, then tell us how it went. No one likes the wicked child. :o > > //atheist h.o. ^^This! 😃 > [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > If your seder/haggadah is too incomprehensible, or has too much Hebrew, find a different one. There are plenty of 'em out there. Or write your own. Meaningless mumbling in a language you don’t understand, discussing concepts that are mysterious – that’s not a seder, that’s a travesty. Last year, we did only a few of the major seder points and we read an abridged version of the book of Exodus (I did the abridging.) The point of the seder should be to learn. We use [this one](http://bparnes.com/haggadah/seder.pdf), and love it. We often have very young (read: restless) children, so we do skip through much of it, but it’s a great melding of the traditional and the modern. I highly recommend it. > [@GilaB](#): > > The vast majority of flour is not kept absolutely, 100% dry at all times between grinding and baking. As soon as it touches water, the 18 minute clock starts, so proper unleavened bread is made from flour that you know has been kept totally dry, which isn’t going to be the Hecker’s you buy at the grocery store. That said, matza doesn’t have to be hard and cracker-like. Traditional Sephardi matza is soft and flatbreadish, although it apparently goes stale very quickly if you don’t keep it frozen. We had the displeasure of trying a shmurah matzo from the local Chabad one year. We _love_ matzo. That was crap. \ We love, love, love Passover, and my husband’s not even Jewish. I love my Passover dishes, flatware and glasses. Every year I take them out I wish they could be our “everyday” stuff, but then I remember there’s a reason we keep them for this “special occasion” and it makes them even more special. We don’t worry about buying things specifically marked as Kosher for Passover. We eat food made from fresh ingredients and that solves the problem right there. There’s nothing against an omelet with onions, mushrooms, spinach, broccoli or any number of ingredients that make it yummy. Hash browns aren’t forbidden. Slice up and orange or a banana and you’ve got a nice weekend breakfast. We also love matzo brie (but we do the sweet kind, as if it were a replacement for French toast). I make macaroons [from scratch](http://bparnes.com/haggadah/seder.pdf) (so easy and so amazingly delicious, you’ll never buy the canned stuff again). Tuna salad tastes _amazing_ on matzo! Yum! Charosets, OMG! [Baron Herzog Winery](http://www.herzogwinecellars.com/) makes some very drinkable kosher wine. Who doesn’t love Passover? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/77 "2011-04-25T02:03:19Z")
Homemade macaroons? Can you come live with me? I LOVE me some macaroons. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/78 "2011-04-25T07:36:01Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > I’m not bothering with KfP this year. I’ve done it in the past. Separate everything, covering countertops with aluminum foil, the whole deal. All the ridiculous so-called food, all designed with the prohibition of kitniyot in place, even though I’m not Ashkenazi and I can eat corn and beans (and peanuts and rice) all I wish during Pesach. > > This year I’m not doing it. I have my matzoh. I’m not eating chametz. Beyond that? Nope. If that makes me a bad Jew, so be it. +1. That said, we nearly always cook from fresh anyway, so it isn’t really that difficult to keep the chametz from creeping in. We eat legumes (if it’s good enough for Rashi, it’s good enough for us) and really, it is not that hard to make eight days’ worth of food from nice tasty fresh fruit and veg. Man, I’m getting excited just thinking about lunch now. The only thing I really really miss is the beer. ☹ > [@Alessan](#): > > Rule of thumb: when it comes to food, traditional Sephardi anything is better than traditional Ashkenazi anything. QFT! > [@Bricker](#): > > A combination of a general observation that fermentation would begin at roughly twenty minutes after water is added to wheat flour, combined with a bit of numerology – the number ‘18’ has some significance in meaning because of the letters used to spell it. 18 minutes is also the amount of time it takes to walk a Roman mile and gets used as a standard time measurement in a lot of places. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/79 "2011-04-25T07:42:20Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I attended seder at Bob and Stephanie’s. As I was the only one who could really read Hebrew (and by that I mean sound it out from written letters, not actually understand what I’m reading), the only Hebrew was a few short blessings. The rest of the ceremony was in English. The meaning of every symbol and action was explained. We rejoiced that we were free and that Israel endures. > > I bought Mountain Dew Throwback without a KP sticker. The label says sugar instead of corn syrup. That’s good enough for me. I did go to a different market (known for its large kosher section- complete with kosher butcher) for some of my Passover needs. For example, no other market in the area sells Fox’s vanilla and black cherry syrups. > > Everything I bought was a _choice_. I could have just bought a sack of unsweetened cocoa powder and made my own treats. I have noticed that while KP cakes are wildly expensive, KP cake mixes are about a buck (and usually come with baking pan included). Sadly, they were out of mixes. Still, I could have bought a box of matzoh, or a can of matzoh meal and eggs and followed a recipe. I just find it to not be worth the time and trouble. > > Finally, as others have said, I could just do without. Though it often seems like it, I do not actually need chocolate to live. > The only Jewish holiday I find depressing is Yom Kippur. You get to think about all the crappy and cruel things you’ve done to people over the last year. Plus, you get a long reminder about how death waits for us all. Positively cheerful. but I looovveee Kol Nidre ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079/80 "2011-04-25T21:48:24Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Homemade macaroons? Can you come live with me? I LOVE me some macaroons. I suspect my husband might object just a little to the living arrangement, but if you send your address to me in a PM I will figure out how to send you some. How’s that for a compromise? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perturbed-over-passover-rules/579079.md?page=5)