# Pet peeve: it's "Jews" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 2, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018 "2015-07-02T02:51:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/81 "2015-07-05T20:50:02Z")
The thread is titled “pet peeves”, not “major problems we need to address”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/82 "2015-07-05T21:07:26Z")
Can we also call the English “Engs”? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/83 "2015-07-05T21:12:52Z")
**monstro** ’s point is 180 degrees off target. **Terr** is annoyed by the fact that people taking such extremes to avoid use of a word perhaps they think that it might offend some people, in this case the some people including him. The verbal convolutions some take to avoid potentially offending members of the group he self-identifies as, is, to him, annoying. Not offensive, just roll-eye worthy. You want to do it anyway? Fine. Your intent is good … but _odd_ to be doing something out of a desire to not offend and then continue to do it when told by many members of the group in question that there not only is no need to take it to such a level but that such extreme efforts come off as contrived and stilted to their ears. It is sort of like someone always saying “African-American” rather than “Black” because at some point they got the impression that that was what that group wanted to be called, being told that “No ‘Black’ is just fine” by many members of the group, and then insisting on still only using “African-American.” It’s not offensive, just roll-eye worthy. Personally I agree with those who state that context matters. Generally the _plural “Jews”_ is only offensive if in the context of “fukkin’ Jews” or "Goddamm Jews. Otherwise “Jews” or “Jewish people” are _both_ just fine depending on the flow of a sentence. In general brevity is preferred but hey, YMMV. _Singular “Jew”_ is used so much more commonly by anti-Semites, _especially_ with the definite article “the” in front of it, that its use often does come off badly. “The Jew DSeid …” is clearly meant to offend. “DSeid, who is Jewish …” is not, at all. In isolation “DSeid is a Jew.” _does_ have a different tone than “DSeid is Jewish.” or “… is of Jewish descent.” The former usage is preferred by a … certain … crowd, and therefore when one applies that usage one sounds like a member of that certain crowd. But only minimally so unless the context primes one to hear it in that light. I think wanting to avoid that association by usage has led many to be _overly_ cautious else they might inadvertently be misconstrued. Ironically that is a very Orthodox tradition … I think referred to as building a fence around the law … interpret and practice stricter than the Law literally requires so unintentional breaking of the Law is even less likely. I don’t get offended by the excesses of the Orthodox and I don’t get offended by those falling over themselves needlessly to avoid offending me. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/84 "2015-07-05T21:20:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **monstro** ’s point is 180 degrees off target. **Terr** is annoyed by the fact that people taking such extremes to avoid use of a word perhaps they think that it might offend some people, in this case the some people including him. The verbal convolutions some take to avoid potentially offending members of the group he self-identifies as, is, to him, annoying. Not offensive, just roll-eye worthy. Being annoyed is not any more virtuous or admirable than being “offended.” It’s just another emotion. If **Terr** can take the piss at people who feel upset when they are the butt of racist jokes or they are forced to talk about racial shite they don’t want to talk about, I can take the piss at him for being annoyed at the misuse of the word “Jew” by well-meaning, non-malicious people. FWIW, I don’t think I’ve ever hesitated saying the word “Jew” before. At least not out of fear of offending anyone. But I’ll try to watch what I say in the future. But because of you, not him. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/85 "2015-07-05T21:30:41Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Why risk offending people when you don’t intend to? Jewish people, Catholic people, gay people, Mexican people, autistic people… It’s not that complicated. To be fair, some people will be offended by those. “Autistic people”, in particular, is considered by some activists to be offensive and the proper term is “people with autism” (called “person first language”). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/86 "2015-07-05T21:49:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > FWIW, I don’t think I’ve ever hesitated saying the word “Jew” before. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18457035&postcount=338](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18457035&postcount=338) “But maybe someone has asked **a Jewish person** what church they belong to and never stopped to think how that seemingly harmless question might grate someone’s nerves day after day.” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/87 "2015-07-05T21:52:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18457035&postcount=338](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18457035&postcount=338) > > “But maybe someone has asked **a Jewish person** what church they belong to and never stopped to think how that seemingly harmless question might grate someone’s nerves day after day.” I promise to do better, Jews. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/88 "2015-07-05T22:27:21Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Being annoyed is not any more virtuous or admirable than being “offended.” It’s just another emotion. > > If **Terr** can take the piss at … I can take the piss at him for … Sure, so are “love”, “hate”, “anger”, “sadness”, etc. also just other emotions … and as “Inside Out” teaches us, none are more admirable than any other. 😉 But still if one is pissing at someone calling them out for a claim they are not easily offended themselves by saying “Aha. Gotcha. See you are too!” then the fact that are actually something else other than offended, no more or less virtuous or admirable but different … well then the piss stream aint hitting the target and leaves a mess on the seat, y’know? And that is assuming that continuing pissing contests across threads and fora is good form to begin with. Not my place to comment on that. Your expressed future consideration is appreciated, although I note I only speak for my own ears, and thank you for illustrating how the use of the plural _can_ be offensive even without “Fukkin” or “Goddam” in front of it, depending on exact usage and understood intent. It was cute. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/89 "2015-07-06T02:24:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I think wanting to avoid that association by usage has led many to be _overly_ cautious else they might inadvertently be misconstrued. Ironically that is a very Orthodox tradition .. … 🙂 I think I agree with you. In contrast, I would get offended by people falling over themselves needlessly to avoid offending me: In my culture it is insulting to suggest that I am easily offended, ( and particularly, lying to avoid offending me becomes the one really offensive thing you can do.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/90 "2015-07-06T03:19:06Z")
Not sure how well it’s known, but [an early Google bomb](http://searchenginewatch.com/sew/news/2065217/google-in-controversy-over-top-ranking-for-anti-jewish-site) was a response to Google’s top-ranked site for the keyword “Jew” being to an anti-semitic website. I confess as a gentile (can I be an atheist gentile? whatever) I hesitate to use the word “Jew” in proper context, and am aware of my usage when I do use it. That’s not necessarily a good thing. **Terr** is correct that it’s a perfectly cromulent word. However, it’s worth noting the reasons for that Google bomb’s necessity: for a long time, “Jew” appeared [in primarily derogatory contexts](http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/22506/what-should-i-be-aware-of-when-using-the-term-jew), and we gentiles were likelier to hear “Jewish people” used in non-derogatory contexts than we were to hear “Jews” in the same contexts. This was true to such a degree that Google’s algorithms figured you must be looking for an antisemitic website if you searched for “Jews.” The word has gotten itself an ugly connotation attached through usage. Is it worth scrubbing off that connotation, taking the word back from bigots? This is one of those things that’s not really my call, but I think it is. I still hesitate over its usage, am still aware when I use it, but I try to use it in appropriate contexts. ---
**Author:** ![lalaith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@lalaith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalaith)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/91 "2015-07-06T03:41:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [World's Jewish Population Approaching Pre-Holocaust Numbers - CBS San Francisco](http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/06/30/worlds-jewish-population-approaching-pre-holocaust-numbers/) > > Why why why do writers (and/or copy editors) keep trying to avoid the word “Jews”? To the point of being ungrammatical as in: > > “California is home to 1.2 million Jewish, according to The American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE).” > > Seriously - WTH. Same with the previous paragraph: > > “The Jewish People Policy Institute (JPPI) estimates there are currently 14.2 million Jewish people in the world today. That estimate approaches 16.2 million, the number of Jewish people in the world before World War II, when Nazis and their collaborators killed 6.1 million Jews.” > > Just because the organization name is “Jewish People Policy Institute” (which is a perfectly cromulous name and you couldn’t substitute “Jews” in there), you don’t have to use “Jewish people” where “Jews” would work perfectly well everywhere. Especially if you decide, finally, to use the dreaded word “Jews” at the end of the paragraph. Well, reactions like [this](http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-04-07/-jew-for-rand-paul-sign-raises-eyebrows) might have something to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/92 "2015-07-06T03:50:56Z")
> [@lalaith](#): > > Well, reactions like [this](http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-04-07/-jew-for-rand-paul-sign-raises-eyebrows) might have something to do with it. … because one idiot was against it, Rand changed it. Who says Rand is not just like any other politician? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/93 "2015-07-06T11:12:23Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Those who want to hang on to words like thug, Jew, etc.; aren’t you concerned that one day you will be like Lou? > > Lou is a guy who frequents my bar. He is in his 70s. The other day he told us he was shocked by how young his new doctor was, and a colored guy, to boot! The rest of us quietly rolled our eyes and changed the subject. I don’t ever wanna be Lou. > [@CarnalK](#): > > So if Lou had said “and a black guy/African American to boot!” none of you would have rolled eyes? Correct! We would have openly laughed/mocked/ridiculed him. We would have asked why the doctor’s race was even worth mentioning. We would have talked about it. But by using the word “colored”, nobody wanted to even go there, as “there” was a place too far. Plus there was beer needing drunk. ---
**Author:** ![lalaith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@lalaith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalaith)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/94 "2015-07-06T16:33:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … because one idiot was against it, Rand changed it. Who says Rand is not just like any other politician? Not just one idiot. I saw it on the cable news because it said “Jew.” In my lifetime, I went from being Oriental to Asian-American. It’s not like anyone consulted me on it. But somehow “Oriental” came to be considered an offensive term. These things happen. It’s not like all of us involved are polled. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/95 "2015-07-06T16:34:31Z")
> [@lalaith](#): > > Not just one idiot. I saw it on the cable news because it said “Jew.” You presented evidence of one idiot. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/96 "2015-07-06T16:42:15Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > To be fair, some people will be offended by those. “Autistic people”, in particular, is considered by some activists to be offensive and the proper term is “people with autism” (called “person first language”). “Operator, I’d like to make a person-to-person call.” “That’s offensive.” “Person-to-person?” “That’s just as bad.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/97 "2015-07-06T16:46:22Z")
Phil Dunphy: Okay, huddle up everybody. Your mother’s right. She’s the quarterback of this family and we need to protect her like Blind Side did. Luke Dunphy: She just said that mom was Blind Side. Phil Dunphy: She’s confused. Blind Side was the black kid who played tight end. Alex Dunphy: Offensive line. Phil Dunphy: Sorry, African-American kid. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/98 "2015-07-06T22:27:03Z")
> [@lalaith](#): > > Not just one idiot. I saw it on the cable news because it said “Jew.” > > In my lifetime, I went from being Oriental to Asian-American. It’s not like anyone consulted me on it. But somehow “Oriental” came to be considered an offensive term. These things happen. It’s not like all of us involved are polled. Yes cable news report of one person complaining. Slow day. But yeah that context does come off … wrong. Wouldn’t if it was plural or if adjectives were used. Does he think he has only one supporter in each category? Most of them could be read as nouns or adjectives and adjectives makes more sense. One Iowan for Paul? One Christian? Dang his support is thin! Meanwhile we can at least poll [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=761517)! ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/99 "2015-07-07T14:37:30Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > (The following isn’t specifically about the main Jew/Jewish discussion and is speaking more generally). > > I understand part of this sentiment, but it’s because I hate the idea of offending or hurting someone, even unintentionally. You, on the other hand, seem to go in a completely different direction – you didn’t know X was an offensive term to use, so you get defensive when someone calls you out on it. > > Your post sounds like, “hey, I can’t keep track of every word or phrase that’s apparently offensive, so I’m not gonna even try. Deal with it!” What’s wrong with something like, “oh, whoa, I didn’t know that was/could be considered offensive. I’m sorry about that!” and make a little mental note for the future? > > Everyone puts their foot in their mouth from time. It’s what you do _afterwards_ that’s telling. Personally, I think a genuine apology and good faith effort in the future is better than focusing on your own embarrassment and getting defensive. Thank you for proving my point. People who know me would take “damn nigh impossible” to mean exactly that - exceedingly difficult. Others, as you did, will put their own spin on it and infer things that were never said (not gonna even try, Deal with it) or things that never happened (called out, embarrassed, defensive, etc.) precisely so they can be offended. That is the part I care about exactly zero. There are very few phrases that can be spoken or typed about people that someone, somewhere will not find offensive. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018/100 "2015-07-07T14:56:35Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Can we also call the English “Engs”? Sure. Call us what you like. We don’t get offended easily, unlike those Trouserdodgers North of Hadrian’s Wall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pet-peeve-its-jews/724018.md?page=6)