# PETA - Pesople for the Ethical Treatment of Animals to change name to PUKA - People f **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732 "2005-06-17T18:46:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/81 "2005-06-22T10:21:05Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Mirabile dictu, it’s possible to hold a nuanced position, in which they’re clearly violating waste disposal laws but not violating animal cruelty laws. When I hold a nuanced position, some call it “nitpicking”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/82 "2005-06-22T10:38:09Z")
Very impressive research, **kaiwik**! > [@kaiwik](#): > > Providing that there is such a law in North Carolina, and that one of the individuals had the proper authorization and training, s/he would not be breaking the law by euthanizing the animals, however I will reiterate that it appears that the two employees were driving around with euthanasia medication, and the means to administer it. I do have to question the manner and location in which it took place, as one of peta’s larger issues focuses on animals being in discomfort and/or fear. Surely the back of a van, along with a dozen or more other animals either waiting their turn to be injected, or dying, or dead, is not a comfortable, relaxed atmosphere. As I said before, this could well be a place that the DEA becomes involved: it does seem weird to me that they’d be carrying those drugs around with them. And you raise a good point about the location of the euthanasia being stressful for the animals. I still want to wait and see, but that’s the first point anyone’s raised that sounds like inhumane treatment of the animals. (Note that it would not in any way rise to the level of felony animal cruelty, IMO). > [@](#): > > In my location if one is in possession of a euthanized animal, it must be incinerated, the point being to not allow the chance of another animal/s eating any of the euthanized body, thereby poisoning an innocent animal. All I can do is assure you that’s not the law here. I’m unaware of a government-run shelter in North Carolina that uses an incinerator. Consider that if an incinerator costs $2.50 a pound, and a shelter euthanizes just 1,000 dogs a year, and the dogs weigh an average of 50 pounds, that works out to 125,000 spent on disposing of bodies. THat money, IMO, could be far better spent on increasing the level of vaccinations for shelter animals, building better facilities for them, public awareness campaigns of the need to spay and neuter, assistance for spaying and neutering for low-income pet owners, etc. > [@](#): > > As for oral contracts, well, one is only as good as one’s word. Enough said. One problem with oral contracts is that different parties can have different understandings of what was said. With a written contract, this doesn’t happen. It’s not uncommon for someone to get furious at our shelter for euthanizing their family pet after they brought it to us to be adopted and we assured them that we would find a new home for Fluffy. Fortunately, we **do** have written contracts, and so we can show the person where they signed a euthanasia request for their animal, signed paperwork acknowledging that we sometimes have to euthanize perfectly healthy and friendly animals, initialed next to the statement that they understood their decision was irrevocable and that they were agreeing that the animal would be euthanized if we were unable to place it in adoptions. People, understand, get extremely emotional about the issue of cats and dogs, and they sometimes rework their memory for how it suits them. It would not surprise me at all if they were told that PETA would take the animals, adopt them if possible, and euthanize them if not. If that’s what they were told (with details, natch), then I wouldn’t characterize euthanizing these animals as breaking their word, if the shelter PETA uses was full. > [@](#): > > Daniel, you said “By tossing them in a dumpster, they could avoid paying disposal fees. They could also avoid paperwork back at the office. They could also avoid driving a long(?) distance with corpses in the back of their truck during hot spring weather. They could also get the grim task over with.” > > Avoiding paperwork implies a lack of truthfulness right up front, which troubles me. I do not like to be lied to. I don’t think I was clear with the quote above. I was not saying that any of these reasons for tossing the animals in a dumpster would be acceptable; I was just throwing out some alternate reasons that weren’t directly related to animal cruelty, in response to someone who suggested that their being thrown in a dumpster was a clear sign of animal cruelty. I think it could be a sign of laziness, dishonesty, etc., not necessarily a sign of cruelty. > [@](#): > > Euthanization is not something I take lightly by any means. Nor do I. Nor does anyone who works at our shelter. The fact that it happens over 6,000 times a year at our shelter is horrific, something we all hate, the reason we are all such zealots about spaying and neutering. Please, please understand that this is true for the vast majority of folks who work at humane societies: those who perform euthanasia are not the ones responsible for the animals’ death (that responsibility lies with the folks who don’t have their animals spayed or neutered), but they’re the people who most keenly experience that death. It’s devastating work. > [@](#): > > As I stated before, we do not see certain things in the same light. The Shelter Lady and I had a go-round a few years back, and while we are now on friendly terms, my eyes were rudely opened to the bottom line as seen by The Humane Society and Animal Rights Activists, and I do not agree with them. Fair enough. I also wanna point out that “humane society” isn’t a term like “McDonalds” so much as a term like “restaurant.” We’re not all one organization; we’re different, independent groups. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/83 "2005-06-22T12:06:23Z")
In today’s _Virginia Pilot_, Ingrid Newkirk has a column addressing this incident: you can see it [here.](http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=88131&ran=99846) Well, she doesn’t really address the specific charges against and actions of the two workers last week. Instead she just talks about how PETA is doing the work that “impoverished” NC counties can’t or won’t do for themselves. It seems to me that she and PETA are going to use this opportunity to once again scold people for mistreating animals. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/84 "2005-06-22T15:36:29Z")
> [@Sean Factotum](#): > > Well, she doesn’t really address the specific charges against and actions of the two workers last week. She sorta does: > [@](#): > > Recently, two PETA staff members were found disposing of animal bodies in a completely improper way after euthanasia. We won’t tolerate that and we took immediate action. Which is part of what I’ve been saying: the clearest violation is improper disposal of bodies, and there’s possible misuse of a DEA permit (that remains to be seen), and depending on where and how the euthanasias were performed, it wouldn’t be up to the standard of euthanasia that we should be expecting. But I absolutely think she’s in the right to use the column to highlight conditions in shelters. We need to realize how appalling the conditions are before we can change them; and if PETA is kicked out of these communities, we can expect a lot more gunshot “euthanasia.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/85 "2005-06-22T15:46:17Z")
Hey Daniel, Does PETA give you a reach around while they’re fucking you up the ass, or are you just inventing every possible excuse for their reprehensible actions because you enjoy being a sycophant? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/86 "2005-06-22T15:57:17Z")
Alright, that was a little harsh and I apologize, but honestly, why are you making excuses for these fucks? They took animals from shelters under the guise of adoption and killed them in a truck, then dumped them in a dumpster. While there are a million "They could have"s or "They might be"s, at it’s heart it’s an indefensible act, from an organization that has repeatedly demonstrated that they are crazy and divorced from reality. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/87 "2005-06-22T16:00:13Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > but honestly, why are you making excuses for these fucks? See “nuanced position,” above. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/88 "2005-06-22T16:06:08Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > See “nuanced position,” above. > Daniel Yes, I see that, very nice. In this case, however, your “nuanced position” bears a suspicious resemblance to a “desperate attempt to come up with any excuse”. What has PETA done that makes them deserving of ANY nuanced consideration? A nuanced position could be used to justify the medical knowledge gained by Dr. Joseph Mengel’s experiments. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/89 "2005-06-22T16:08:45Z")
See “Godwin’s Rule,” ibid. Come back when you’re willing to not be such a flaming asshole, and I’ll answer your question, though the answer should be obvious. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/90 "2005-06-22T16:15:59Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > But I absolutely think she’s in the right to use the column to highlight conditions in shelters. We need to realize how appalling the conditions are before we can change them; and if PETA is kicked out of these communities, we can expect a lot more gunshot “euthanasia.” > > Daniel Seems to me a shot to the head is a lot quicker and more humane than some futz trying to jab a needle (especially if the van happens to be in motion at the time). ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/91 "2005-06-22T16:19:33Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > See “Godwin’s Rule,” ibid. > > Come back when you’re willing to not be such a flaming asshole, and I’ll answer your question, though the answer should be obvious. > > Daniel Sorry, Goodwin’s rule doesn’t apply ( although I somehow knew you’d bring it up). Goodwin’s rule states “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.” I never compared anyone or anything to the Nazis. Reread what I wrote again, this time for comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/92 "2005-06-22T16:37:28Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Seems to me a shot to the head is a lot quicker and more humane than some futz trying to jab a needle (especially if the van happens to be in motion at the time). Assuming: 1. The shooter is accurate; and 2. The bullet doesn’t ricochet off the skull; and 3. the animal isn’t moving around wildly then a gunshot can be less stressful **to that particular animal** than the very slight stress of a needleprick in a properly-administered intravenal injection (which is basically an overdose of sedative). It will still be more stressful to surrounding animals. However, there are very rarely ideal conditions when shelters are using guns to kill animals. I don’t know the circumstances under which these PETA employees were administering the lethal injection. That’s one part of the story that hasn’t come out yet, as far as I’ve seen. If someone else wants to review Godwin with Weirddave, have at it; I don’t have time for such triflin. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/93 "2005-06-22T16:46:37Z")
For more information, search for the words “Gunshot” and “pentobarbital” in [The American Veterinary Medical Association’s 2000 Report of the Panel on Euthanasia](http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:4-YmFfnYIfMJ:www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf+methods+for+euthanasia&hl=en). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/94 "2005-06-22T16:52:03Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > See “Godwin’s Rule,” ibid. > > Come back when you’re willing to not be such a flaming asshole, and I’ll answer your question, though the answer should be obvious. Josef Mengele would still have been a sadistic SOB even if he hadn’t been a member of the Nazi party. Nazism just gave him greater rein to perform his “experiments”. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/95 "2005-06-22T16:54:23Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > If someone else wants to review Godwin with Weirddave, have at it; I don’t have time for such triflin. > > Daniel “I don’t have time for such triflin.” I’ll have to remember that, it’s a neat turn of phrase to use the next time I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/96 "2005-06-22T17:01:09Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Josef Mengele would still have been a sadistic SOB even if he hadn’t been a member of the Nazi party. Nazism just gave him greater rein to perform his “experiments”. I’m not sure I follow. Wouldn’t Goebbels, Hitler, and all the other Nazis have been sadistic SOBs without having the party around? Yet isn’t invoking any of them invoking Godwin’s Law? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/97 "2005-06-22T17:17:23Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I’m not sure I follow. Wouldn’t Goebbels, Hitler, and all the other Nazis have been sadistic SOBs without having the party around? Yet isn’t invoking any of them invoking Godwin’s Law? > > Daniel No, it is not. Goodwin’s law refers specifically to comparing someone or something to Hitler or the Nazis. If I had said “PETA is as bad as Dr Mengle”, then that would have violated Goodwin’s law. The statement I made stands on it’s own and compares nothing to anything. What I said is true, and is a commentary on the weakness of nuanced positions-“A nuanced position could be used to justify the medical knowledge gained by Dr. Joseph Mengel’s experiments.” Merely mentioning Hitler or the Nazis is not a violation of the rule, it’s comparing people to them that counts. Doing so is worthy of criticism because it usually means that the speaker has run out of legitimate discussion points. See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/98 "2005-06-22T17:20:25Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Assuming: > > 1. The shooter is accurate; and Well, that’s pretty easy to figure out **before** you hire a person for a job. > [@](#): > > 1. The bullet doesn’t ricochet off the skull; and And do you have any idea how **rare** that is? Besides, if you pick a fairly high powered weapon (such as a standard police issued weapon), there will be **zero** chance of the bullet richoceting off the skull, simply because the skull will be vaporized on impact. > [@](#): > > 1. the animal isn’t moving around wildly So you aim for the center of mass, this drops the animal down and you then administer a coup de grace shot, pretty simple, really. Of course, instead of shooting them, you could slit their throats, that’s pretty quick. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/99 "2005-06-22T17:22:20Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Wouldn’t Goebbels, Hitler, and all the other Nazis have been sadistic SOBs without having the party around? Whether or not they were sadistic at all is debatable. Mengele almost certainly was. > [@](#): > > [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengele) > It was during his 21-month stay at Auschwitz that Dr. Mengele achieved infamy, and it is for this period that he was later referred to as the “Angel of Death”. Mengele was usually part of the medical delegation which met incoming prisoners, determining which would be retained for work and experimentation, and which would be sent immediately to the gas chambers. > > Of particular interest to Mengele were twins; beginning in 1943, twins were selected and placed in special barracks. Almost all of Mengele’s experiments were of dubious scientific value, ignoring the lack of ethics involved, including attempts to change eye color by injecting chemicals into children’s eyes, various amputations and other brutal surgeries, and in at least one case attempting to create an artificial conjoined twin by sewing the veins in two twins together; this operation was not successful and only caused the hands of the children to become badly infected. Subjects of Mengele’s experiments were almost always murdered afterward for dissection, if they survived the experiment itself. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/100 "2005-06-22T18:52:00Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Well, that’s pretty easy to figure out **before** you hire a person for a job. Did you check out the AVMA site? The AVMA is not exactly a rabid animal-rights organization. **Weirddave** , you’ve got the choice of either debating this situation on the merits of the case, on the evidence, and on the law; or you can debate it with disgusting sexual metaphors and comparing the defense of PETA to the defense of Nazis. Note that disgusting sexual metaphors could also be used in the defense of Dr. Mengele’s experiments; what does that say about you? Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732.md?page=6)