# PETA - Pesople for the Ethical Treatment of Animals to change name to PUKA - People f **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732 "2005-06-17T18:46:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/161 "2005-06-27T21:05:58Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > So are you arguing that nuanced reasoning is faulty? Again, explain to me your theory, if you’re rejecting the taking of a nuanced position. I really don’t get what folks are arguing. Unless there’s something I’m not getting, your reasoning can be used to say “Give RJR-Nabisco a pass on cigarettes because they make Ritz crackers!” Does that help? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/162 "2005-06-27T21:11:56Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Unless there’s something I’m not getting, your reasoning can be used to say “Give RJR-Nabisco a pass on cigarettes because they make Ritz crackers!” Does that help? There’s something you’re not getting. I am NOT saying to give PETA a pass on the actual stupid shit they do. I am all for calling them out for the actual stupid shit they do. But the heirs to the RJR empire run the Z. Smith Reynolds Foundation, one of the largest charitable givers here in North Carolina. And if someone wants to dismiss all the good work done by ZSR because it comes from blood money (or rather hacked-up-sputum money), I’ll think that’s a dumb thing to do. You can on the one hand condemn the Reynolds family for its horribly fraudulent and deadly activities, while on the other hand approving of the charitable work they do. I have never in this thread called for giving PETA a pass on their stupid shit. I have denied: 1. That there’s any evidence that the activity discussed in the OP is clearly according to company policy; and 2. That PETA has never done anything good. If I had a button I could press that would disband PETA, I’d press it. But I don’t, so meanwhile, I’ll praise them for their good works, condemn them for their tacky works, defend them against false charges, and excoriate them for lame defenses. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/163 "2005-06-27T21:33:48Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I am NOT saying to give PETA a pass on the actual stupid shit they do. I am all for calling them out for the actual stupid shit they do. True, but it sounds like your are for giving them a pass as a whole because of the good things they do. Throughout history, there have been people & organizations that did some good things, some bad things, and some questionable things. Even Al Capone used his illegally-obtained monies to fund charities. That’s the point **dave** and I have been making. > [@](#): > > \*I have never in this thread called for giving PETA a pass on their stupid shit. I have denied: > > 1. That there’s any evidence that the activity discussed in the OP is clearly according to company policy; and > 2. That PETA has never done anything good. No question about #2. As for #1, if it had been company policy the only sites that would make it public are anti-PETA, which automatically puts it in the realm of questionable info.\* > [@](#): > > If I had a button I could press that would disband PETA, I’d press it.l No need to disband them. Just get them out of the hands of the kooks. > [@](#): > > - defend them against false charges\* I think that’s the key here. There’s no way to know if the charges are really false or not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/164 "2005-06-27T21:47:15Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > True, but it sounds like your are for giving them a pass as a whole because of the good things they do. In what sense does it sound like I’m doing that, and what would it mean if I were doing that? I’ve called them kooks in this thread; I’ve said they’ve done pretty fucking awful things; I’ve said I’d disband them if I had a magic button that would do so. From my perspective, it seems to me that **weirddave** was flipping me all kinds of shit because I refused to claim that PETA was evil incarnate, and because I recognized that certain of their acts were positive, and because I refused to assume the worst of everything they did. > [@](#): > > No need to disband them. Just get them out of the hands of the kooks. heh. The magic button is more plausible. > [@](#): > > I think that’s the key here. There’s no way to know if the charges are really false or not. Well, precisely: I’m unwilling to condemn them until there’s some evidence that the charges **against PETA** are valid, and so far I’ve seen no evidence to support that this was anything beyond the actions of a couple of asshole employees, and I’ve seen no evidence to indicate that the charges of felony animal cruelty will stick to these employees. I’m not willing to assume that Schodinger’s cat is dead before we lift the lid\*. Show me some evidence that PETA has done ill here, and I’ll join the rush to condemn them for this act. But based on the evidence I’ve seen, it just seems implausible to me that PETA’s culpability here extends beyond doing a piss-poor job in hiring these two schmucks. Daniel - Not to be confused with Schrodinger’s cat, which would lead to a wholly inappropriate metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/165 "2005-06-27T22:27:20Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > In what sense does it sound like I’m doing that, and what would it mean if I were doing that? Hell, I don’t know. If **dave** is still around maybe he can give you an answer. After all, he’s the one who started us on this road. > [@](#): > > _From my perspective, it seems to me that **weirddave** was flipping me all kinds of shit because I refused to claim that PETA was evil incarnate, and because I recognized that certain of their acts were positive, and because I refused to assume the worst of everything they did._ If I read correctly, **dave** has the opinion that PETA is a borderline terrorist organization. An opnion that is shared by the FBI. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/166 "2005-06-27T23:39:46Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Hell, I don’t know. If **dave** is still around maybe he can give you an answer. After all, he’s the one who started us on this road. To be fair, I think he’s a mental midget who wouldn’t know a coherent, honest argument if it bit him on his skull-stuffed ass. If you’re not saying I’m defending PETA, I got no argument with you. > [@](#): > > If I read correctly, **dave** has the opinion that PETA is a borderline terrorist organization. An opnion that is shared by the FBI. Really? I didn’t realize, and I’m not being snarky here, that the FBI had opinions about whether groups were borderline terrorist. I thought they considered groups either terrorist or non-terrorist. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/167 "2005-06-28T01:06:28Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > If you’re not saying I’m defending PETA, I got no argument with you. Nope, just trying to help you understand what **dave** was saying. > [@](#): > > _Really? I didn’t realize, and I’m not being snarky here, that the FBI had opinions about whether groups were borderline terrorist. I thought they considered groups either terrorist or non-terrorist._ I was surprised, too. The FBI’s opinion appears to be based, at least in part, on PETA’s financial support domestic terrorist groups. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/168 "2005-06-28T01:08:38Z")
Please insert “of” wherever you see fit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/169 "2005-06-28T01:40:21Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > To be fair, I think he’s a mental midget who wouldn’t know a coherent, honest argument if it bit him on his skull-stuffed ass. If you’re not saying I’m defending PETA, I got no argument with you. Considering that you, and apparently nobody but you, are having trouble understanding the arguments that I am making here, exactly what rock does that put you under in the brain capacity hierarchy, hmm? Let’s see if you can wrap your brain stem around this point: [This site](http://www.huntersunite.com/peta.htm)(admittedly an anti PETA one, but I believe the records they are referencing are public) makes the following point: > [@](#): > > ``` > * In a 1992 report by the NCIB, National Charities Investigation Bureau, PETA spent 42% of its organizational expenses on fundraising. Only 20% on actual research and investigation in to animal cruelty. > * More current reports examining PETA's tax filings have shown as little as 1% of PETA's total revenue actually goes directly to helping animals; usually small donations to animal clinics or similar organizations. PETA's 2001 tax filings show some interesting donations: > > 1. Compassion Unlimited Plus Action - Bangalore - Donation - $11.11 > 2. PETA Research & Education Foundations - Donations $29.16 > 3. In Defense of Animals - Donation $71.11 > 4. Virginia Police Defense Fund, Norfolk Police Union - Donation - $150 > 5. Society for Abolition of Animal Exploitation - Donation - $150 > 6. Kalamazoo Animal Liberation League - Donation - $150 > 7. Vieques Humane Society - Donation - $25 > 8. SNAP - Donation - $50,000 > > PETA's donations totaled only $206,655.58, but they had a total revenue of almost $14 Million. > > PETA spent the following on > > 1. PETA TV - Expense - $13,268.84 > 2. Electronic equipment, computers, cameras - Expense- $33,869.24 > 3. Automobiles - Expense - $148,362.02 > 4. SNAP Vehicle - Expense - $150,000.00 > 5. Buildings and improvements - Expense - $295,101.60 (After a $195,000 donation of property) > 6. Land - Expense - 94,170.00 > > It makes one ask the questions, what is PETA really about? Why do they choose to spend more money on promoting themselves than actually helping animals? > > ``` Now your defense of PETA’s activities seems to center around the fact that they spent some money on a shelter in your area. Well and good, bravo for them. Let’s further assume that they did the exact same thing in every state in the Union(which I doubt seriously). Those are good things, right? Presumably that’s the 25% good that you referenced. I would contend, however, that if such donations only total a small percentage of the money that PETA raised, they are actually harming the cause of animal welfare. How you ask? Well, if the lion’s share of the money they raise is going to fund terrorist organizations (ALF and ELF), towards defending criminals, or towards mounting ridiculous ad campaigns (Drink beer not milk) and the like, than that is all money that is completely wasted, not one thin dime of it is actually contributing towards the problems of animal welfare in this country. Furthermore, how many people do you suppose declined to donate to local shelters because they had already sent the charitable money that they had available to PETA, and figured they had done their part for animal welfare? I bet it was more than a few. Therefore, PETA is actually harming the cause of animal welfare by siphoning off funds from legitimate organizations, organizations who really do have the welfare of animals in mind, into lunatic fringe efforts (Boycott Murder King! What a crock. Murder by definition involves humans, not cows) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/170 "2005-06-28T10:40:18Z")
First off, **weirddave** , I want ot thank you for making an actual argument instead of just throwing out random ad hominems and comparisons to terrorist organizations. THIS is a post I can sink my teeth into, and I appreciate it; if your posts continue to be of this calibre, I’ll retract my statements about your intellect. > [@Weirddave](#): > > Now your defense of PETA’s activities seems to center around the fact that they spent some money on a shelter in your area. No: my statement that they do some good work was challenged, so I gave an example of good work they did that I knew about personally. Slight difference. > [@](#): > > Those are good things, right? Presumably that’s the 25% good that you referenced. Right. > [@](#): > > I would contend, however, that if such donations only total a small percentage of the money that PETA raised, they are actually harming the cause of animal welfare. How you ask? Well, if the lion’s share of the money they raise is going to fund terrorist organizations (ALF and ELF), towards defending criminals, or towards mounting ridiculous ad campaigns (Drink beer not milk) and the like, than that is all money that is completely wasted, not one thin dime of it is actually contributing towards the problems of animal welfare in this country. I don’t conflate those things. While I think it’s misleading to call ALF and ELF terrorist organizations, they’re doubtless criminal movements, and if they’re funding criminals, that’s pretty bad and is something that should involve law enforcement. Note that ALF and ELF are, to the best of my knowledge, not “formal organizations,” and anyone can adopt those sullied names; to show that they’re actually funding criminals you have to draw a direct connection to someone who has committed a criminal act using PETA funds, and that PETA’s funds were given to the criminal with the intention of facilitating a criminal act. If that’s shown, prosecute the bastards with my blessing. On the other hand, the ridiculous ad campaigns are central to PETA’s work, and fall into the 50% in the middle: stuff that may make sense or not depending on your political orientation. If you believe that animals have inherent rights, then the goal of the campaign (lessen milk consumption and therefore lessen cattle kept in dairy pens) follows. I don’t accept it, but it doesn’t infuriate me, and I recognize that they’re very, very good at getting issues discussed, although not always in the most sober of fashions. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, how many people do you suppose declined to donate to local shelters because they had already sent the charitable money that they had available to PETA, and figured they had done their part for animal welfare? I bet it was more than a few. Perhaps so. I don’t know It’s our job as shelters to make the case that we’re a more effective place for donations. > [@](#): > > Therefore, PETA is actually harming the cause of animal welfare by siphoning off funds from legitimate organizations, organizations who really do have the welfare of animals in mind, into lunatic fringe efforts (Boycott Murder King! What a crock. Murder by definition involves humans, not cows) And yet their campaign against Burger King led to specific, measurable improvements in the lives of the animals slaughtered for Burger King. Did they employ hyperbole in the campaign? Yes, and you won’t catch me defending their sense of taste or their honesty: I think PETA is all too willing to sacrifice the truth in order to advance their argument. But in this case, they got results, and I gotta say, though I may not like the means, I like the ends. Figure out how many cattle will be affected by Burger King’s agreement with PETA, and you’ll know a portion of the animals they helped. That’s a legitimate animal welfare accomplishment. Finally, just a little education: SNAP stands for Spay/Neuter Assistance Program. Their SNAP expenditures were classic animal welfare expenditures. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/171 "2005-06-28T17:48:35Z")
[The Better BUsiness Bureau’s report on PETA](http://www.give.org/reports/report.aspx?ID=373&ReportType=1). While PETA fails 2 of the standards for responsible charities according to the BBB, I suspect we can all agree that its failures in these regards are not extreme. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/172 "2005-10-18T22:06:06Z")
Well, it has finally happened. Two PETA helper indicted. [http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=93730&ran=57036](http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=93730&ran=57036) ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732/173 "2005-10-18T23:24:02Z")
Considering how often we have PETA threads in the Pit, would it have been that hard to start a new one? Locked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-pesople-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-to-change-name-to-puka-people-f/308732.md?page=8)