# PETA to boycott KFC

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [January 7, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098 "2003-01-07T04:18:38Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 13\
**Page:** 4

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**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/61 "2003-01-10T00:36:09Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \*  
> \*\*I think if you ask 100 people for an example of terrorism, 100 of them will name an act involving mass murder. I think if you watch the news and tally the uses of the word “terrorism” or “terrorist,” you’ll find greater than 95% of the time, the word is used in reference to mass murder.
> 
> Let’s look at some cites:
> 
> In [FEMA’s](http://www.fema.gov/hazards/terrorism/terrorf.shtm) Fact Sheet on terrorism, the following crimes and tools of terrorism are mentioned:  
> Explosives; Kidnappings; hijackings; arson; shootings; Bomb Threats; Chemical Agents; Biological Agents. (Chemical agents are poisonous gases, liquids or solids that have toxic effects on people, animals or plants," not paint).
> 
> The [Department of Homeland Security](http://www.whitehouse.gov/deptofhomeland/sect5.html) promises to protect us from terrorism. They focus on WMD, but also add in agricultural terrorism. They don’t mention paint anywhere.
> 
> Terrorism Research Center, Inc. expands their definition even further, to include cyberterrorism. Still no red paint.
> 
> I maintain that you’ve got the connotation of the word all wrong. Terrorism is so closely linked to murder that most people, on hearing you describe anyone as a terrorist, will believe you’re calling them a murderer. This is hyperbole. The word “vandal” applies much better: the denotation is correct, and the connotation is correct as well. If you want, put the word “political” in front of “vandal,” and you’ve got a perfectly serviceable term that won’t conflate paint throwing with anthrax mailing.
> 
> Daniel \*\*

You win.

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**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/62 "2003-01-10T02:29:25Z")

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FTR, KFC has a formal [animal welfare policy](http://www.kfc.com/about/animalwelfare.htm), specifically stated [animal welfare guidelines](http://www.kfc.com/about/animalwelfare_guidelines.htm),

> [@](#):
>
> KFC has had an animal welfare policy for almost a decade. KFC imposes specific, strict welfare performance standards on its suppliers. KFC’s guidelines and audits are designed to manage and monitor each step of the process to ensure that all birds are handled humanely and suffer no pain. KFC audits its suppliers for compliance, and non-compliance could result in termination of the supplier’s contract.

and clearly stated [guiding principles](http://www.kfc.com/about/animalwelfare_principles.htm).

I’m not going to pretend that suppliers never attempt to avoid their legal obligations to comply with KFC standards, but as someone whose daughter is employed by Yum Brands, Inc, I can state that any breach of KFC’s official policies (at any contractual level) is taken very seriously by the company and retribution is both swift and ruthless. Anything which creates a negative impression of the company in the public eye gets immediate, high-level, attention.

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**Author:** ![Dev\_Null](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@Dev\_Null](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dev_Null)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/63 "2003-01-10T05:13:21Z")

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Forgive me if I’m not making sense: I just had my tonsils yanked. I’m trying to figure out what’s worse, the fuzzy painkiller sense in my brain, or all the glass shards I seem to be swallowing.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lissa \*
> 
> I’m glad to hear that. Unfortunately, not all operations are like those in Rockingham and Augusta Counties, Virginia. Some operations are much like I described.  
> \*\*

They must be becoming fewer and way father between, then. I would suggest that the high-density and high input operations are less profitable, and are waning. This is true for dairy operations as well. More and more dairy operations are moving away from feeding cows to grazing them. Even though you don’t sell as much milk, your profit margins are higher. Ironically, the environmental impacts of the dispersed grazing may be higher than than concentrated feeding. 95% of the dairies I’ve seen have sophisticated waste management systems that you just don’t have in a pasture setting, where nonpoint source is a big issue. You can control when you apply manure from a storage pit, but direct deposits in the pasture are just waiting for a rain.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> The smell from the Buckeye Egg Farm in Ohio was appalling. I’ve heard that it could be smelled from miles away. The chickens may not have cared, but those humans in the surrounding community sure did, as did the EPA.\*\*

Personally, I don’t mind the smell from chickens or dairy. But we’re working on solutions to keep the encroaching suburbanite’s delicate olfactors from being offended. My best friend is working on a water bath system that runs downstream of fans in the poultry houses to control odors. It’s particularly difficult as scent is so hard to quantify.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> I don’t, for one instant, believe that the antibiotics are used to ease “animal suffering.” They’re used to controll illnesses brought on by the conditions that they are kept in.  
> \*\*

True, but I think you might be putting the cart before the horse. Preventing suffering is rather the byproduct of keeping the animals healthy.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> I used to raise chickens myself. Not one of them ever needed anitbiotics. None of them ever tried to cannibalize their fellow birds, because they had plenty of room. Chickens only do that when they are kept in cramped conditions.  
> \*\*

If you raised chickens, you are a better person than I. 🙂 But I’ve heard of cases of cannibalism even in management intensive ranged chickens. I think it is not exclusively crowding, but rather a stressor of any kind, be it heat, sickness, unpalatable feed, or crowding. And, it’s far more likely that, if an individual hen needs antibiotics, you’ll just put the animal down rather than giving it antibiotics. There’s just no money in it.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> I don’t know. It seems to me that chickens on a farm in a large coop, allowed to free-roam during the day have it a bit better than the chickens whose feet never touch the earth.  
> \*\*

Perhaps, but they are also more vulnerable to predation, the elements, parasites and so on. Furthemore, speaking for myself, I just don’t think ranged chickens taste as good. Eggs are cooler looking, though with very, very golden yolks. Yum!

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> A happy chicken may be a productive chicken, but in a lot of the plants I’ve read about, a sad, non-productive chicken is a dead chicken.\*\*

And, an unprofitable one.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> Let’s be honest: chickens are cheap. You can buy fertilized eggs for next to nothing. Some plants find it more profitable to keep the chickens in the conditions I described, and when the birds stop producing, kill them and get another. Perhaps research is ongoing in how to keep a chicken happy, but it’ll be a lot more expensive, and simply put, many plants wouldn’t want to invest that kind of money into something so disposable.\*\*

It is true that chicks are cheap. But what isn’t cheap are the inputs. You just don’t raise a few thousand halfway to their target weight and kill them, and get more. Your integrator won’t pay for chickens that don’t meet that target. While it’s true that it’ll never be profitable to have pampered chickens, it is true that content animals are more profitable.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> On smaller farms, yes, you’re right. But in huge milk-producing farms, the calves are taken away, because they’ll drink up all of the profits.  
> \*\*

Well, most cows aren’t dairy cows, and where the calves have been weaned, they are typically offered very nutitious and palatable mixes that the calves, by all reports, prefer.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> A wild herbivore moves on to different pastures when the one it’s been feeding in becomes befouled, or it has eaten all of the tastiest grasses. Cows today are kept in one location, much smaller than a herbivore’s natural range.  
> \*\*

As you pointed out previously, the herd frequently loafs together. Regardless of the size of a given paddock, I challenge you to show me a clean, poopless cow. Which brings up another point I wanted to address from your earlier post. What kind of food to you think a cow prefers? Corn? Grass? Sileage? You seem to think that a cow prefers to roam the pasture eating grass, but that just isn’t the case. So, if a cow prefers to live it’s life in front of the trough, muching and drinking, is that the most humane way keep them? Or is it better to do what we think is more healthy for the cow and make them shlemp around the pastures foraging?

\*\*

> [@](#):
>
> I don’t think my stance in asking for good conditions for animals and a quick death are all that unreasonable. \*\*

I don’t think it is either. I think both of us want good conditions for the animal. Where we differ is how good or bad we think the current situation is. I agree that it could be better, and further assert that it is getting better. To balance the info in some of the more recent popular literature, perhaps check out some of the many papers that the various states’ extension service offers. They are usually the best, recommended practices that are common on today’s farms.

Now for some ice cream…  
Best,  
Dev

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/64 "2003-01-10T09:21:52Z")

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Excellent post, **Dev Null**! I actually learned a lot.

I’m gonna go have a hamburger and a milkshake now.

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**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/65 "2003-01-10T13:45:24Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by reprise \*  
> \*\*FTR, KFC has a formal [animal welfare policy](http://www.kfc.com/about/animalwelfare.htm), specifically stated [animal welfare guidelines](http://www.kfc.com/about/animalwelfare_guidelines.htm),  
> \*\*

I don’t know that I’m in a position to judge the duelling links, but [PETA claims KFC is blowing hot air](http://www.kfccruelty.com/kfcsays.html) about animal welfare.

Daniel

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**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/66 "2003-01-10T14:27:35Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \*
> 
> * * *
> 
> Terrorism is currently just about the worst crime you can accuse someone of. If you trivialize the crime by lumping in vandalism with mass-murder, you dilute the accusation’s power even as you try (disingenuously, I think) to exaggerate the crime of paintthrowing.\*\*

And to call assault “vandalism” is to trivialize it.

If they were throwing paint on a fur coat that no one was wearing, it would be vandalism. These cretins are throwing paint on people.

Fenris

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**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/67 "2003-01-10T15:32:03Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Fenris \*  
> \*\*And to call assault “vandalism” is to trivialize it.
> 
> If they were throwing paint on a fur coat that no one was wearing, it would be vandalism. These cretins are throwing paint on people.
> 
> Fenris \*\*

Fair point. Call it “assault,” then, when thrown on people, and “vandalism” when sprayed on unworn coats.

I do agree that the political motivation for doing it makes it a more serious crime than, say, drunkenly throwing beer on someone at a bar. Maybe there should be a new crime category, similar to hate crimes statutes, to apply to politically-motivated crimes?

Daniel

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**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/68 "2003-01-10T22:23:14Z")

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Thank you, \*\*Dev Null. \*\* You post was informative and polite, though we disagree a bit.

> [@](#):
>
> What kind of food to you think a cow prefers? Corn? Grass? Sileage? You seem to think that a cow prefers to roam the pasture eating grass, but that just isn’t the case. So, if a cow prefers to live it’s life in front of the trough, muching and drinking, is that the most humane way keep them?

any animal (huamans included) would prefer to have their food right in front of them, with no effort in obtaining it. Laziniess is a trait shared by all creatures.

The only question I have concerning the diet of cattle is the potential lack of vitamins and minerals. I haven’t researched this issue, but it stands to reason that vitamin-enriched grain wouldn’t be as nutritious as wild grasses and plants. To make a similar analogy in humans, I could survive off of bread and water, taking a vitamin tablet, but any doctor will tell me that it would be better if I ate fresh fruits and vegetables.

One book that I read suggested that feeding cattle primarily on grain was a waste of resources, given the land and water needed to grow it (the author blames some de-forresting on this need), as well as the man-hours put into maintaining the crop. Of course, this didn’t address the fact that the same amount of land, or more, would be needed to allow cattle to forage.

> [@](#):
>
> Or is it better to do what we think is more healthy for the cow and make them shlemp around the pastures foraging?

Perhaps a combination of both. Of course, grain is a quick way to fatten cattle, and so the industry relies heavily on it.

> [@](#):
>
> Where we differ is how good or bad we think the current situation is. I agree that it could be better, and further assert that it is getting better.

You certainly have given me a lot to think about, and I am going to look into those publications you mentioned.

> [@](#):
>
> Now for some ice cream…

I’d join you, but I’m lactose intolerant. I think I’ll have a hamburger instead.

Cheers!

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Dev\_Null](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@Dev\_Null](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dev_Null)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/69 "2003-01-10T23:14:36Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lissa \*
> 
> The only question I have concerning the diet of cattle is the potential lack of vitamins and minerals. I haven’t researched this issue, but it stands to reason that vitamin-enriched grain wouldn’t be as nutritious as wild grasses and plants. To make a similar analogy in humans, I could survive off of bread and water, taking a vitamin tablet, but any doctor will tell me that it would be better if I ate fresh fruits and vegetables.\*\*

The feeds used for cattle are very nutritous, palatable, and tailored to the animal’s stage of life. State ag colleges have spent millions and millions on animal nutrition. Feeds are, in most ways, better than forage, straight sileage, and hay. If anything, they are too nutritious: they frequently lack bulk. That is made up for by all kinds of strange ingredients, including hay, cotton by-products, you name it. Cows love it.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> One book that I read suggested that feeding cattle primarily on grain was a waste of resources, given the land and water needed to grow it (the author blames some de-forresting on this need), as well as the man-hours put into maintaining the crop. Of course, this didn’t address the fact that the same amount of land, or more, would be needed to allow cattle to forage.  
> \*\*

Most beef cattle, at least here in the east, are typically finished on grain in the midwest, but spend most of their lives foraging. It is true that acre-per-acre, you get more nutrition from soy beans than the grain-\>cow route. That said, soy beans aren’t exactly an innocuous crop with standard ag practices, and there isn’t enough land or manpower for organic soy production on such a vast scale. Proper pasturing with appropriate BMPs is one of the most environmentally friendly uses of land (I could expound on that more if you’d like).

The claim by many vegetarian environmentalists of the land differential required for grazing beef intentionally avoids the fact that much (most?) pasture and range _cannot be farmed_. In the East, the land that is used for pasture is frequently poor and/or shallow soils or excessive slope. Tilling such land would be an environmental and financial disaster. Out West, the ecosystems of rangeland depend on the hooved ruminants. To convert these pastures and rangelands, both in the East and West to some other production is simply not possible.

This in **no way** excuses the shortsighted overgrazing which has been all too common in the past.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> Perhaps a combination of both. \*\*

Which is largely what happens, if at different stages of beef cattles’ lives.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> I’d join you, but I’m lactose intolerant. I think I’ll have a hamburger instead.
> 
> Cheers! \*\*

Turns out I couldn’t even swallow the ice cream. So far, I’ve survived for two days on Diet Coke, water, and Roxicet. I’d kill to be able to eat some hamburger. Hell, I’d even settle for some straight tofu right now.

I’ve enjoyed our conversation as well.

Best,  
Dev

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![YellowTail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5ac83/32.png) [@YellowTail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YellowTail)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/70 "2003-01-10T23:21:32Z")

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Stopped by last night and there was a looong line at the drive-thru. I guess KFC never got such good advertising as a PETA protest!

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**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/71 "2003-01-11T00:05:25Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \*  
> \*\*They are terrorists, pure and simple. \*\*

Definitely. Right up there with ObL and Hezbollah. :rolleyes:

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**Author:** ![keira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@keira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keira)\
**Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/72 "2003-01-12T17:09:17Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \*  
> **Forty years ago, you would’ve been calling them communists, and a hundred years ago, you would’ve been calling them anarchists, and five hundred years ago, you would’ve been calling them Satanists. If being rude to someone over supper constitutes terrorism, then the word is so ridiculously devoid of meaning that we should drop it from our vocabulary.**

I absolutely agree.

I find, that if some group is called “terrorist”, but that group has NOT tried to communicate its message through MURDER, then someone somewhere is simply waging an effective PR campaign.

Terrorists try to get their way by making people FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES. If PETA were going around killing people, demanding that companies “stop producing meat or we will kill again”, then they are terrorists. It’s about inspiring terror.

If a group is simply annoying, then they are not terrorists. Annoyedists maybe, but not terrorists. You shouldn’t be labeled a terrorist simply because you are annoying, or hold an unpopular opinion, or even illegally trespass or convert someone’s property.

A person could go out, and steal a million dollars, or destroy some valuable stuff, or run around the city naked… but until he/she actually threatens to **harm another person** , he/she is not a terrorist.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\
**Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-boycott-kfc/147098/73 "2003-01-12T22:01:21Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \*  
> \*\*I don’t know that I’m in a position to judge the duelling links, but [PETA claims KFC is blowing hot air](http://www.kfccruelty.com/kfcsays.html) about animal welfare.
> 
> Daniel \*\*

I have to go out for a few hours, but I’ll come back to this post when I return.

I’m going to contact a friend of mine whose speciality is animal husbandry and check out whether any poultry gassing facility exists in my country - with luck, I’ll have a response by the time I return.

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