# PETA to sue Sea World for slavery **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027 "2011-10-28T00:43:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/61 "2011-10-29T04:51:48Z")
To test your theory, I just offered my dogs their freedom. Opened the door, and allowed them to run wild and free. They peed, and then choose to come back inside and curl up on the couch. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/62 "2011-10-29T05:04:57Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > To test your theory, I just offered my dogs their freedom. Opened the door, and allowed them to run wild and free. They peed, and then choose to come back inside and curl up on the couch. I took it one step further - I shut the door and left mine outside - wasn’t 5 minutes later she was barking - demanding to be let back in - being the dutiful slave that I am, I complied. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/63 "2011-10-29T05:12:41Z")
Housepets aren’t the best example… Working animals, such as plough-horses, cart-buffalo, or pack-llamas live a life of unpaid labor. The fact that they are better-fed and better cared for than they would be in a state of nature is not a full expiation, at least in the eyes of many. It is a kind of exploitation. It isn’t “slavery” in the formal sense, as they don’t have any comprehension of liberty to compare to their existence. The definition of the word has to be stretched for it to include animal labor, even though, if the exact same treatment were offered to a human, we would call it slavery. The primary difference is that a human, when freed, can make it on his own, but a farm animal, if freed, simply dies. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/64 "2011-10-29T05:40:38Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > One can only hope that SeaWorld’s counter-suit bankrupts PETA and runs their worthless asses out of business. Well we can dream. But I suspect that PETA has a very deep pool of supporters. > [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > PETA is crazy…like a fox. While many animal friendly non-profits struggle to bring in money PETA gets it hand over fist and they do it almost solely by these crazy media grabbing stunts It’s a living. And yes, they are very good at what they do. > [@Naxos](#): > > What I said is still true… Humans have been enslaving animals for as long as recorded history. Cats and humans started with a symbiotic relationship: cats protected the grain. It has turned parasitic over the past couple hundred years, as cats do little to advance human reproductive fitness. They are like cuckoo birds, overloading our nurturing instincts. They even host a pathogen with [mind altering properties](http://www.livescience.com/7019-mind-control-parasites.html). See [Brood parasitism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brood_parasitism) for an analogy. > [@Odesio](#): > > Back in the old days people talked about animal welfare not rights. Maybe if we started talking about animal welfare rather than rights others wouldn’t have these knee jerk reactions. I oppose animal rights: I think humanitarians have bigger fish to fry. I am wary of supporting animal welfare, because that might empower the animal rightists: that would be wrong. I’m not just blowing smoke. I evade eating pork or ham because of US industrial treatment of pigs, though I will purchase ham by [Niman Ranch](http://www.nimanranch.com/Protocols.aspx). Ham is my favorite food. In another world, I might have sympathies for organized animal welfare advancement. But I don’t even like the ASPCA, because I don’t want to indirectly empower the loons. So yes, PETA’s stunts have impact, long lasting impact. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/65 "2011-10-29T06:50:21Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > To test your theory, I just offered my dogs their freedom. Opened the door, and allowed them to run wild and free. They peed, and then choose to come back inside and curl up on the couch. That’s your pretense of freedom. If they had grown independently of the dependency of a human, they would not stayed in the confines of an apartment. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/66 "2011-10-29T06:51:26Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I took it one step further - I shut the door and left mine outside - wasn’t 5 minutes later she was barking - demanding to be let back in - being the dutiful slave that I am, I complied. Nice… abuse them and make them beg. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/67 "2011-10-29T07:04:10Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > That’s your pretense of freedom. > > If they had grown independently of the dependency of a human, they would not stayed in the confines of an apartment. No, they’d be dead. I guess dead is a freedom of sorts.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/68 "2011-10-29T07:52:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, they’d be dead. I guess dead is a freedom of sorts.:rolleyes: Rather, the wouldn’t have been born in the first place, just to justify the vanity needs of human beings wanting to impose themselves on helpless mammals to gratify their egotistical need of superiority. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/69 "2011-10-29T12:19:08Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > They don’t live in a natural environment that would support their existence. Neither do I. And I suspect that you don’t either. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/70 "2011-10-29T12:37:03Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > All play and no space make Shamu something something. I loved this. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/71 "2011-10-29T14:53:39Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > That’s your pretense of freedom. _Freedom’s just another word For nothing left to lose._ Given that it’s pretty damn cold this morning, my dogs seem quite happy to be inside, sleeping on the bed with my wife as I type this. You see, there is no food bowl in nature. Nor is there a big soft bed, gas heat, dog biscuits, or any of the other luxuries they’ve come to enjoy. That whole “noble savage” thing sounds good to misguided souls, but the reality is that is a harsh, brutal, and often short existence. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/72 "2011-10-29T15:14:20Z")
Let me get this straight. PETA is upset that some animals are being held in parks by humans, but on the other hand, one of PETA’s top leaders has no problems whatsoever with animals being killed so she can get her insulin treatment. Is that the take-away from this story? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/73 "2011-10-29T15:37:22Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Rather, the wouldn’t have been born in the first place, just to justify the vanity needs of human beings wanting to impose themselves on helpless mammals to gratify their egotistical need of superiority. Nice! You should write a term paper. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/74 "2011-10-29T17:55:10Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > _Freedom’s just another word > For nothing left to lose._ > > Given that it’s pretty damn cold this morning, my dogs seem quite happy to be inside, sleeping on the bed with my wife as I type this. You see, there is no food bowl in nature. Nor is there a big soft bed, gas heat, dog biscuits, or any of the other luxuries they’ve come to enjoy. That whole “noble savage” thing sounds good to misguided souls, but the reality is that is a harsh, brutal, and often short existence. Dogs are also bad examples because they domesticated (pardon me, “enslaved”) themselves: the least wary gray wolves figured out that hanging around people was likely to mean easy pickin’s at our garbage dumps. Do that for a few generations and voila! Rover, who over the course of finding the most effective ways to hang around with us and our trash without getting kicked in the head, evolved the ability to read our faces almost as accurately as we do ourselves, along with an inherent affinity for us. Since we are not nearly so _naturally_ adept with them, and yet we lavish them with love and attention anyway, I think it’s a hard call about who enslaved whom… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/75 "2011-10-29T18:02:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Let me get this straight. PETA is upset that some animals are being held in parks by humans, but on the other hand, one of PETA’s top leaders has no problems whatsoever with animals being killed so she can get her insulin treatment. Is that the take-away from this story? I just looked it up, because I had no idea that insulin involved killing animals. Everything I found described insulin being manufactured using bacteria. Is that what you’re referring to? Does whomever you’re referring to as a PETA top leader consider bacteria worthy of protection? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/76 "2011-10-29T18:07:25Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Nice… abuse them and make them beg. So, your calling pet owners animal abusers? I have several pets, and I take offence to that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/77 "2011-10-30T00:26:37Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There have been several incidents of killer whales attacking (and even killing) their trainers in recent years, which is one reason you no longer see the kinds of elaborate tricks and stunts you used to see at Sea World. There can’t be a reason for something that hasn’t actually happened. There have been several attacks on trainers by Sea World whales, but they still do the same elaborate tricks and stunts. The only permanent change occurred after the last death; trainers are no longer allowed in the water with Sea World Orlando’s largest whale, Tillikum. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/78 "2011-10-30T05:17:08Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I just looked it up, because I had no idea that insulin involved killing animals. Everything I found described insulin being manufactured using bacteria. Is that what you’re referring to? Does whomever you’re referring to as a PETA top leader consider bacteria worthy of protection? I know that insulin was originally developed from sheep pancreases (pancreai?), but I believe that you’re correct; that modern insulin is produced by bacteria. I think you could argue that PETA claims that all living creatures are ethically equivalent and so using insulin is wrong, but it’s a little weak for someone who washes herself to worry about the bacteria. Rather, I’d suggest arguing that using insulin to treat diabetes is a remnant of ethically questionable medical research that killed thousands of sentient beings (sheep), and so would be the moral equivalent of using life-saving medical techniques developed by [Dr. Mengele](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengele) or [Unit 731](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)\*. It’s a pretty shaky argument either way. \*None of the “medical” research done by either party produced any lifesaving techniques that I’m aware of, unless you want to see it as evidence that major surgery does indeed require anesthetic. I’m certainly not condoning anything done by either party. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/79 "2011-10-30T06:28:47Z")
Oh, for crying out loud. Dogs most likely pretty much [domesticated themselves](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-domestication) - they have certainly been living in effective symbiosis with humans for ages. Cats, of course, have domesticated _us_. 😉 If there is a reason not to keep these animals as pets, though, it’s the fact that we have to keep them with food, and since those animals are carnivores, that does involve the enslavement and killing of livestock. Those cows that go into your cat food sure don’t get a chance to curl up on the couch. That’s the reason why a vegetarian probably shouldn’t have a cat or dog for a pet, and the main reason I wouldn’t have a cat (as much as I love the little buggers). This is also something that “animal lovers” for some reason tend to forget. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/80 "2011-10-30T07:44:43Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > If there is a reason not to keep these animals as pets, though, it’s the fact that we have to keep them with food, and since those animals are carnivores, that does involve the enslavement and killing of livestock. The relationship between cows/pigs/chickens and humans is symbiotic: humans have surely aided these animals’ reproductive fitness. I really don’t have a problem with this sort of exchange. Separately, industrial farming appears to enhance animal suffering. I don’t believe this to be inevitable: humans have adapted to urban environments and I have no reason to believe that animals couldn’t do the same. The problem is that unregulated markets tend to drive down costs: I wouldn’t be surprised if livestock was treated with brutality, and my weighing of the evidence indicates that treatment of US pigs is usually unfortunate. But that’s an animal welfare issue, not one of animal rights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027.md?page=5)