# PETA to sue Sea World for slavery **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027 "2011-10-28T00:43:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/122 "2011-11-03T08:19:42Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Pathetic attempt for a humorless analogy aside, Those in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/123 "2011-11-03T08:21:24Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Pathetic attempt for a humorless analogy aside Lighten up, Francis. Besides, I mean it. I’ll take a dog’s simple life over the wretchedness of the human condition any day of the week. > [@](#): > > the animal is still subjected to a human’s imposed compulsory possession. And if that meant anything to a dog, you’d have a point. But only humans are retarded enough to care about intangibles. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/124 "2011-11-03T10:54:20Z")
Sounds like an Overton window moving stunt. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Humans are “part of nature,” but a “part apart.” Once we started engaging in large-scale modifications of the environment (i.e., planting fields of crops) we pretty much left nature to one side. Following this logic beavers and [photosynthetic micro-organisms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event) are also a “part apart.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/125 "2011-11-03T14:54:15Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Fine. > > Make children and let them out your house any time you want, even before they leave the hospital when newborn. Yes, that would work well. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/126 "2011-11-03T15:54:29Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Following this logic beavers [snip] Maybe that’s why they’re angry. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/127 "2011-11-03T17:54:33Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Maybe. But it’s our choice. It’s not theirs. > > Pets are enslaved animals. There’s no denying it. The issue is whether enslavement of vanity pets by humans is an acceptable practice or not. I’m denying it. Enslaving means to make a slave of. My pets are not involuntary servants. They aren’t servants of any kind at all. ---
**Author:** ![jonesj2205](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jonesj2205](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonesj2205)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/128 "2011-11-03T18:23:17Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Animals are enslaved to humans, nobody doubts that. > [@](#): > > I said animals are enslaved to humans and there’s no doubt about that. > [@](#): > > Animals have always been enslaved to humans and that much is common knowledge. > [@](#): > > Pets are enslaved animals. There’s no denying it. > [@](#): > > Pet ownership is defining animals as objects and property to humans. That much is obvious. > [@](#): > > That much is true and irrefutable. I’ve just got to say, since you’re virtually the only one arguing this position perhaps you should reconsider the baseline view of society. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/129 "2011-11-03T18:57:48Z")
Who does the shopping? Who prepares the food? Who (literally) cleans the shit up? ME. It would be more accurate to say I’ve enslaved myself to my cat, for some strange psychological reasons no one fully understands. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/130 "2011-11-03T19:03:44Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Really? > > Your friends depend on you to feed them and give them shelter? > > I didn’t think so. > > Pets are slaves. Just admit it. I would reply to this but I need to go clean my cat’s litter box. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/131 "2011-11-03T19:48:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Plus I’d get to lick my own balls. I’d never leave the house. Silly man, assuming you’d actually HAVE balls to lick. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/132 "2011-11-03T19:58:57Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Pets are enslaved animals. There’s no denying it. I deny it. Thus your premise is stupid and wrong. That was easy. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/133 "2011-11-03T20:07:05Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Fine. > > Make children and let them out your house any time you want, even before they leave the hospital when newborn. How, exactly, is this a rebuttal to my claim, via comparison, that you are using the word “slavery” too broadly? Me: “If animals are enslaved, then children are also.” You: “Let your children out of the house.” Huh? That is neither a “yes” nor “no.” Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/134 "2011-11-03T20:12:43Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > . . . Besides, I mean it. I’ll take a dog’s simple life over the wretchedness of the human condition any day of the week. . . . Alas, I’ve known too many abusive pet owners. Make it a zoo animal, and I might go for it! This absurd claim reminds me of the hyper-libertarians who say that taxation is “slavery.” (Or, quite often, “theft.”) The problem is that re-defining words for rhetorical impact loses its effect by dilution. It trivializes real slavery. It raises a false equivalence. “Hey, if slaves in the old Confederacy were as well treated as my dogs and cats, then they had nothing to complain about!” This is why the comparison, in this thread, has been called offensive: it demeans real slaves to the status of pets. Trinopus (my computer and car are also enslaved) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/135 "2011-11-03T20:16:09Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Sounds like an Overton window moving stunt. > > Following this logic beavers and [photosynthetic micro-organisms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event) are also a “part apart.” There are, in rhetoric, two competing fallacies: the fallacy of drawing the line (which I readily admit I am engaging in) and the fallacy of not drawing the line, which I believe is being engaged in by anyone who says that human technology is “part of nature.” Like “slavery,” if you degrade “nature” so far as to include computers, gasoline engines, plutonium warheads, and the like, then you have rendered it meaningless. Someone might say, “I’m leaving the big city and going to the woods for a few days, to see nature.” Would a rational person rebut, “You’re in the midst of nature right now, right in the heart of downtown Houston!” It removes any contextual use from the word. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/136 "2011-11-03T20:33:31Z")
I will go this far… It is conceivable to me that keeping a whale or dolphin or chimp could be slavery – if it could be demonstrated that the animal has the reasoning power to even conceive of the idea and to object to being kept by humans. I think these animals need to start crash training programs in human talk. If they say,“Let my people go”, that will be good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/137 "2011-11-03T20:36:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There are, in rhetoric, two competing fallacies: the fallacy of drawing the line (which I readily admit I am engaging in) and the fallacy of not drawing the line, which I believe is being engaged in by anyone who says that human technology is “part of nature.” > > Like “slavery,” if you degrade “nature” so far as to include computers, gasoline engines, plutonium warheads, and the like, then you have rendered it meaningless. Someone might say, “I’m leaving the big city and going to the woods for a few days, to see nature.” Would a rational person rebut, “You’re in the midst of nature right now, right in the heart of downtown Houston!” It removes any contextual use from the word. > > Trinopus I just went a round with someone in another thread who claimed that domestic chickens and cattle are products of natural selection, because we humans selecting them are part of nature. And there was more than one – I stopped arguing because there is no point to it when your views diverge that much. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/138 "2011-11-03T20:55:03Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] I think these animals need to start crash training programs in human talk. If they say,“Let my people go”, that will be good enough for me. [/QUOTE] I’d settle for an EEG showing similarities in brainwave patterns between a well-cared for pet and a prisoner held against his will. > [@](#): > > I just went a round with someone in another thread who claimed that domestic chickens and cattle are products of natural selection, because we humans selecting them are part of nature. And there was more than one – I stopped arguing because there is no point to it when your views diverge that much. Psst. It’s this thread. This is a continuation of that round. Also that’s not what I was saying re:chickens. I was saying that the fact that they’re domestic _in the first place_ was a product of natural selection & symbiosis. I did acknowledge that in recent times we’ve had a more active role in the process. [QUOTE=Trinopus] This absurd claim reminds me of the hyper-libertarians who say that taxation is “slavery.” (Or, quite often, “theft.”) The problem is that re-defining words for rhetorical impact loses its effect by dilution. It trivializes real slavery. It raises a false equivalence. “Hey, if slaves in the old Confederacy were as well treated as my dogs and cats, then they had nothing to complain about!” This is why the comparison, in this thread, has been called offensive: it demeans real slaves to the status of pets. [/QUOTE] This. It’s pretty much the Holocaust of rhetorical devices. (kidding, I agree with you completely. There’s probably the substantific marrow of an ethical debate to be had here, but we won’t get anywhere near it as long as \*\*Naxos \*\*(and PETA) doesn’t drop the rampant dysphemism and appeals to emotion) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/139 "2011-11-03T20:56:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Silly man, assuming you’d actually HAVE balls to lick. You mean they… and I would… AW HELL NAW. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/140 "2011-11-03T21:30:39Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > … Also that’s not what I was saying re:chickens. I was saying that the fact that they’re domestic _in the first place_ was a product of natural selection & symbiosis. I did acknowledge that in recent times we’ve had a more active role in the process. > > … You said several things, including this. > [@](#): > > Of course they are. Just because we’re involved doesn’t make it “unnatural”. Aren’t we part of nature ? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027/141 "2011-11-03T21:42:17Z")
Yes. And we are. Just as we were in the dawn of time when dogs were wolves and then became dogs, or when chickens were whatever they were before they became _avis domestica_. That sentence wasn’t implied to mean “genetic manipulation is a 100% natural process”, but rather “domestication is not an unnatural concept”. I do realize I wasn’t being very clear on this, and my words were ambiguously terse - I’m afraid I have a tendency to assume whatever the thought process behind my words is, it’s crystal clear to whoever I’m speaking to ; and whatever I understand everybody must understand because I’m not all that smart. So I skip steps and become clear as tar. I try to work on that but… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peta-to-sue-sea-world-for-slavery/601027.md?page=8)