# Pete Hoekstra **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939 "2012-02-06T05:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/182 "2012-02-09T05:39:25Z")
> [@plumbers21](#): > > WOW!!! awesome post, nice things to follow, thank you very much for this great piece of work!!! > [[spam links for plumber deleted]] Why don’t you go plumb the depths of your ass? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/183 "2012-02-09T05:50:33Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Why don’t you go plumb the depths of your ass? There once was a plumber from Lee Who was plumbing his girl by the sea. Said his girly, “Stop plumbing, I can hear someone coming.” Said the plumber, still plumbing, “Yes: me!” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/184 "2012-02-09T06:03:41Z")
Her name was Farrah Faucet, if I recall… ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/185 "2012-02-09T06:07:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Her name was Farrah Faucet, if I recall… I’d tap that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/186 "2012-02-09T06:24:09Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > It’s a bit of a dodge, really, to squabble over whether this ad, or the Willie Horton ad, or any similar ads are racist in and of themselves. Of course they’re crafted with enough plausible deniability for the answer to be “no” even on a close reading—that’s part of the artistry. Really, you have experience as to how the ads are crafted? Can you give us some more details about how you have obtained this knowledge? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/187 "2012-02-09T13:25:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Really, you have experience as to how the ads are crafted? Can you give us some more details about how you have obtained this knowledge? It’s classic dog-whistle technique. Write script attack on policy, but use visuals that appeal to the reptilian brain. Prison furloughs are bad policy BUT OH MY GOD LOOKEE! SCARY NIGGER! We’re spending too much and borrowing too much from China BUT OH MY GOD LOOKEE! YELLOW PERIL! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/188 "2012-02-09T14:50:26Z")
“Dog whistle” is one of the most overused terms on this MB. It’s generally a sure sign that the poster has no actual proof, but won’t admit it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/189 "2012-02-09T15:32:44Z")
Oh? So, it doesn’t exist, then? Of course it does, you know it does. But by its very nature, it isn’t explicit, so any assessment of its prevalence cannot be really objective, it cannot be quantified. is this an example? Sorta kinda. Not as blatant as “food stamp president”, but its there. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/190 "2012-02-09T15:34:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Really, you have experience as to how the ads are crafted? Can you give us some more details about how you have obtained this knowledge? I divine the intent of political ads by watching and listening to them carefully. You need special assistance, I guess? PowerPoint slides? A blueprint of the ad agency’s cube farm? Let me know what you require to be brought up to speed, **John** , and I’ll do my best to oblige. It’s better for the discussion if we’re both on even ground. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/191 "2012-02-09T15:44:45Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I divine the intent of political ads by watching and listening to them carefully. You need special assistance, I guess? PowerPoint slides? A blueprint of the ad agency’s cube farm? > > Let me know what you require to be brought up to speed, **John** , and I’ll do my best to oblige. It’s better for the discussion if we’re both on even ground. Eh. Any actual evidence would do. If you’re going to insist that “of course” something is true, then you should bring something to the table other than speculation about the motives of the people who produced the ad. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/192 "2012-02-09T15:54:30Z")
If it swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I don’t need to see the egg. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/193 "2012-02-09T15:57:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. Any actual evidence would do. If you’re going to insist that “of course” something is true, then you should bring something to the table other than speculation about the motives of the people who produced the ad. Thanks for the suggestion. It does rather stymie the analysis of political advertising and propaganda in general, though, if we need signed affidavits from the architects before we can draw any conclusions about intent. Setting such a high bar certainly works in their favor though, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/194 "2012-02-09T16:05:32Z")
Gosh, **Vinny** , with all the non-partisan cred we’ve accumulated here, you’d think **John** would be quick to respect our objectivity. But no! Go figure, huh? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/195 "2012-02-09T17:14:20Z")
I said something unflattering about Keith Olbermann once. What more do they want? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/196 "2012-02-09T17:17:17Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Thanks for the suggestion. It does rather stymie the analysis of political advertising and propaganda in general, though, if we need signed affidavits from the architects before we can draw any conclusions about intent. Setting such a high bar certainly works in their favor though, doesn’t it? Here’s the thing… We can all speculate, and we all do. But the fact is, some of what we speculate about is impossible to prove. Sucks, but them’s the breaks. And in those cases, we shouldn’t make emphatic statements about the veracity of our claims. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/197 "2012-02-09T17:56:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here’s the thing… We can all speculate, and we all do. But the fact is, some of what we speculate about is impossible to prove. Sucks, but them’s the breaks. And in those cases, we shouldn’t make emphatic statements about the veracity of our claims. > > That’s all. Wait, I think I see what’s going on here. Are you perhaps thinking that if a claim of racism or bigotry can stick to this commercial, there might perhaps be some sort of legal punishment? Or that we’re perhaps hoping for legal punishment? Surely you don’t object to this particular chain of events: Viewer watches ad. Viewer thinks ad is racist. Viewer does not vote for Hoekstra. Or this: Viewer watches ad. Viewer thinks ad is racist. Viewer speaks out against ad, attempting to persuade others not to vote for Hoekstra. Those are both natural consequences of free speech, are they not? As you say above, we can’t divine intent, and that works both ways. We can’t say if he meant to be racist, and we can’t say if he didn’t. So all we can do is divine meaning from the ad itself, and if a particular viewer derives a particular interpretation, how is that interpretation actually wrong? And if that viewer can convince others that it’s racist, how is _that_ wrong? Judging from this thread, this particular topic is not something that can be argued about objectively. It appears to be something you either see or don’t see, and the people who don’t see it simply don’t accept as compelling the evidence that the people who see it do.\* So, fine. Some people see the ad as bigoted, some don’t. If enough people believe it’s bigoted and refuse to vote for Hoekstra, again, how is that wrong? This is a political ad. It’s all _about_ public opinion. Right and wrong simply don’t enter into it, except insofar as public opinion determines what works and what doesn’t. In summary: This is not an issue where the veracity of a claim is determined objectively, but by consensus. \*It’s worth pointing out again that this isn’t a party line issue. There are at least some GOPers who find the ad bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/198 "2012-02-09T18:39:15Z")
I would never have gotten any racist undercurrent from the video. But since some people are really up in arms about it I decided to watch it a few more times and …still see nothing racist, only a poorly crafted message. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/199 "2012-02-09T18:43:40Z")
> [@IntelliQ](#): > > I would never have gotten any racist undercurrent from the video. But since some people are really up in arms about it I decided to watch it a few more times and …still see nothing racist, only a poorly crafted message. I find this funny, because you’re not the first person to dance around it like this. It’s poorly crafted because it relies on a stereotype. How offended you are by the stereotype determines whether you’re willing to call it racist/bigoted, but the reason you call it poorly crafted and the reason we’re calling it bigoted are the same. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/200 "2012-02-09T19:01:26Z")
Still can’t understand the mind set that hires an American actress of Asian extraction who speaks entirely unaccented American and then shoehorn in some grammatical stupidity to make her seem…what? more authentic? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/201 "2012-02-09T19:05:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Still can’t understand the mind set that hires an American actress of Asian extraction who speaks entirely unaccented American and then shoehorn in some grammatical stupidity to make her seem…what? more authentic? You karate training! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=11)