# Pete Hoekstra **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939 "2012-02-06T05:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/222 "2012-02-12T02:20:46Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > It’s from Full Metal Jacket. It’s a very well-recognized pop culture reference. Shit, I’ve never seen the movie and I know the reference. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Metal_Jacket#Cast):It’s entered pop culture as a stereotype of Asians. Didn’t see the movie and hadn’t heard the reference before here. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You’re not American are you? Yup > [@](#): > > Elected Chinese Republicans have withdrawn their endorsement of Hoekstra. Specifically because they think the ad is racist? > [@Jenaroph](#): > > It’s mentioned in the article, but I think it bears reiterating here that those guys who beat Vincent Chin to death were American auto workers angry about the Japanese “taking their jobs.” Around here, Asian xenophobia is still something of a sore spot (if you drive a Japanese car in Detroit, expect some comments at your expense), and this ad poked it with a stick. So, it may be that the ad appears racist because of that, and not so much because of it’s content. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/223 "2012-02-12T09:35:09Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Would you see it if it was a barefoot black boy munching on watermelon speaking black English? Ok, I’ve watched the ad, read the thread. I still can’t figure out what is racist about it even if you WOULD change it to a barefooted black boy muching on watermelon speaking black English. I’m not trying to make any point, I genuinely do not understand, from a viewpoint in Holland, what is supposed to be racist about this. The Chinese woman seems to be intelligent, well educated. The background looks like a idealized version of rural China. The point he’s trying to make is that the only people benefiting from american spending are their creditors. What is racist about any of this? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/224 "2012-02-12T10:16:06Z")
To be clear: I DO understand how this ad is pandering to the lowest common denomitor, populist and xenofobic. Just not racist. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/225 "2012-02-15T03:07:18Z")
An update, not really on the racism issue, but the ad has backfired: > [@](#): > > Indeed, 54 percent of voters in Michigan were aware of Hoekstra’s controversial ad and 45 percent said it made them less likely to vote for him, according to Public Policy Polling. Only 16 percent said that the spot made them more likely to vote for him, and 37 percent said it didn’t make a difference in their voting preferences. Read more: [http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/72866.html#ixzz1mPrpUmQv](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/72866.html#ixzz1mPrpUmQv) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/226 "2012-02-15T03:41:11Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Willie Horton likely wasn’t picked because he was black, but because his crimes were memorable and were committed while out for a weekend. :dubious: Um, one of the things that notoriously **made** his crimes “memorable” was that he was a black man who raped a white woman. Moreover, as [Media Matters noted](http://mediamatters.org/mobile/blog/201201110009), the Bush campaign seems to have been quite aware of the effect of the race factor in the Willie Horton ad: > [@](#): > > In his book about the 1988 campaign, Pledging Allegiance, [journalist Sidney Blumenthal] quotes an anonymous member of the Bush campaign team as saying, “Willie Horton has star quality. Willie’s going to be politically furloughed to terrorize again. It’s a wonderful mix of liberalism and a big black rapist.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/227 "2012-02-15T06:17:24Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Um, one of the things that notoriously **made** his crimes “memorable” was that he was a black man who raped a white woman. > > Moreover, as [Media Matters noted](http://mediamatters.org/mobile/blog/201201110009), the Bush campaign seems to have been quite aware of the effect of the race factor in the Willie Horton ad: Oh, Mr. Unnamed Source vs Blumenthal? Hmmm. How about Blumenthal vs Christopher Hitchens: > [@](#): > > Following the publication of The Clinton Wars, Hitchens wrote several pieces in which he accused Blumenthal of manipulating the facts.[11][12] Here’s a question: do you think using Willie Horton would have been okay to make the point if he had been white? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/228 "2012-02-15T13:24:55Z")
We wouldn’t even know the name “Willie Horton” if he were white. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/229 "2012-02-15T15:24:19Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yup Well there’s an often quoted line from a Vitnam War movie called Full metal Jacket where a Vietnamese prostitute entices young American soldiers by saying “me love you long time” > [@](#): > > Specifically because they think the ad is racist? I think so. [http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/asian-american-elected-goper-turns-on-hoekstra-after-ad.php](http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/asian-american-elected-goper-turns-on-hoekstra-after-ad.php) > [@](#): > > So, it may be that the ad appears racist because of that, and not so much because of it’s content. Yes, the context is what moves it from bad taste to racist. > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > I’m not trying to make any point, I genuinely do not understand, from a viewpoint in Holland, what is supposed to be racist about this. It is appealing to some pronounced anti-Asian sentiments in the area. > [@](#): > > The point he’s trying to make is that the only people benefiting from american spending are their creditors. Are you familiar with the term “dog whistle politics”? BTW I disagree that deficit spending only helps America’s creditors. I think its the opposite. If the guy I lent money to keeps borrowing money, it doesn’t really help me at all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/230 "2012-02-16T00:07:26Z")
No, I wasn’t familiar with the term and I think I know what you are getting at. Thanks. Part of me thinks that to be called a racist you have to go out and say or do racist stuff, not just something that can be understood, by insiders, as racist. WRT to the deficit spending: at some point the lender will own the borrowers ass. Which is the other less known way of winning Civilisation: through complete economic domination. (which is a bad thing for us in the west I think) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/231 "2012-02-16T00:17:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, Mr. Unnamed Source vs Blumenthal? Hmmm. Actually, there isn’t any unnamed source contradicting Blumenthal here: it’s Blumenthal **quoting** an unnamed source. > [@magellan01](#): > > How about Blumenthal vs Christopher Hitchens: You mean, concerning their respective records on factual accuracy? Blumenthal every time. > [@magellan01](#): > > Here’s a question: do you think using Willie Horton would have been okay to make the point if he had been white? It wouldn’t have involved playing on racial fears if he had been white, certainly. IMHO, it would still have produced a somewhat unfair attack ad that mischaracterized the prison furlough program and Dukakis’ role concerning it, but it wouldn’t have had any racist element. But then, as **Jack Batty** pointed out, the racist element of playing on racial fears was the fundamental reason that Willie Horton was notorious in the first place. We wouldn’t know who he was today if he’d been white. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/232 "2012-02-16T00:46:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well there’s an often quoted line from a Vitnam War movie called Full metal Jacket where a Vietnamese prostitute entices young American soldiers by saying “me love you long time” Yes, that’s what they said upthread. How it could be surprising that I live in the US because I don’t know a quote from a movie I’ve never seen, I don’t know. > [@](#): > > I think so. > > [http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/asian-american-elected-goper-turns-on-hoekstra-after-ad.php](http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/asian-american-elected-goper-turns-on-hoekstra-after-ad.php) It appears that the person quoted, Alicia Ping, only thinks the ad is racist because she remembers seeing people make fun of those who don’t speak English perfectly, which is certainly not Chinese specific or even Asian specific. Also, the girl in the ad is supposed to be a native Chinese citizen in China who has a good but not perfect grasp of English, not an Asian in the US trying to learn the language. OTOH, I don’t tend to trust any news agency any more, so it’s quite possible that she had other more realistic problems with the ad. > [@](#): > > Yes, the context is what moves it from bad taste to racist. I’m not getting how context can influence whether or not something is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/233 "2012-02-16T00:53:07Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yes, that’s what they said upthread. How it could be surprising that I live in the US because I don’t know a quote from a movie I’ve never seen, I don’t know. It’s kind of like not knowing who Darth Vader is, is the thing. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/234 "2012-02-16T01:07:55Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > It’s kind of like not knowing who Darth Vader is, is the thing. Really? Were there three or more Full Metal Jacket movies, each with that girl in them? Did they sell toys, lunch boxes, etc with her picture? Just where does on go to see all these repeats of that girls line? As I understand it, there was only one movie, with the one girl and the one line. A line that would, um, resonate? with men more than women. I may have even heard the line before, but without having seen the movie or any references to it, nor having any interest in those sorts of, um, services, I don’t remember it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/235 "2012-02-16T01:16:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Actually, there isn’t any unnamed source contradicting Blumenthal here: it’s Blumenthal **quoting** an unnamed source. Uh, yeah. > [@Kimstu](#): > > It wouldn’t have involved playing on racial fears if he had been white, certainly. IMHO, it would still have produced a somewhat unfair attack ad that mischaracterized the prison furlough program and Dukakis’ role concerning it, but it wouldn’t have had any racist element. Well, unfair is highly subjective in that regard, I think you agree. It does point out a problem with the program. I fully agree that there is another side to the argument, but political ads rarely give both sides. But back to the point of this exchange. If it would be okay to use Willie Horton if he was white, for the things he was able to do as a result of the prison furlough program, why isn’t it okay to use him because he was black? Would it have been okay to use an Native American? An Icelander? A Japanese person? Why does the accident of his race take him off the table? Changing topics slightly, it seems that you’d be okay with a picture of Ted Bundy with the headline: Mass murdering scum, but not the picture of a black mass murderer with the same headline. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/236 "2012-02-16T01:17:49Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > We wouldn’t even know the name “Willie Horton” if he were white. Maybe not. But don’t you think that’s due to the left crying foul about using him all these years. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/237 "2012-02-16T01:23:59Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Really? Were there three or more Full Metal Jacket movies, each with that girl in them? Did they sell toys, lunch boxes, etc with her picture? Just where does on go to see all these repeats of that girls line? > > As I understand it, there was only one movie, with the one girl and the one line. A line that would, um, resonate? with men more than women. I may have even heard the line before, but without having seen the movie or any references to it, nor having any interest in those sorts of, um, services, I don’t remember it. If you stretch juuuuuuuust a little more, you can get that straw you’re grasping at. Don’t get so fucking defensive. You didn’t know it, we expressed surprise, we explained why we were surprised, let’s move the fuck on. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/238 "2012-02-16T01:58:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Maybe not. But don’t you think that’s due to the left crying foul about using him all these years. Yeah. It’s the left’s fault that the right race-baits. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/239 "2012-02-16T02:13:09Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > If you stretch juuuuuuuust a little more, you can get that straw you’re grasping at. > > Don’t get so fucking defensive. You didn’t know it, we expressed surprise, we explained why we were surprised, let’s move the fuck on. I’m not being defensive, fucking or otherwise, nor am I grasping at straws. I merely don’t see how it can be so surprising that someone doesn’t know some movie meme if they hadn’t seen said movie, no matter how popular. For example, I haven’t seen any of the Matrix movies, so if you all come up with a meme from that one, I’m not likely to recognize that either. This may also tie in the the racist/not racist opinions on that ad. Assumptions are made by one side, such as everyone knows there are issues regarding Asians in Michigan, that the other side doesn’t even know about. So the attitude that only an idiot or closet racist wouldn’t see that ad for what it is (“yellow peril”, “I love you long time” and all that) seems kind of dumb considering that this board goes all over the world. Tho, even knowing that stuff now I don’t see it as racist, but I do see it as trying to get already racist voters there to go with Hoekstra. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/240 "2012-02-16T02:50:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But back to the point of this exchange. If it would be okay to use Willie Horton if he was white, for the things he was able to do as a result of the prison furlough program, why isn’t it okay to use him because he was black? Would it have been okay to use an Native American? An Icelander? A Japanese person? Why does the accident of his race take him off the table? It’s not so much his race as the racial aspect of his crime. He was a black man who raped a white woman. What made that crime so notorious is not just that it was a horrific act of violence in itself, but also that black-man-rapes-white-woman is a deeply ingrained and highly disturbing racist stereotype in American culture. The ad exploited that stereotype to heighten viewers’ negative reactions to the candidate it associated with the crime. That’s exactly how racist stereotypes in fearmongering ads work: they stress well-known and unsettling images of a group identified as “alien” and “other”, in order to get the viewers’ negative emotions going more strongly. In a much milder way, that’s what the “oriental” stereotypes in the Hoekstra ad are doing: they’re emphasizing that this “Chinese” girl is part of a vaguely menacing “Them” (communists, creditor country, foreign military power, lots of people, exotic scenes, peasants, tongs, Fu Manchu, etc. etc.) that viewers feel vaguely uncomfortable about. If the somewhat sinister foreign “Them” approve of Hoekstra’s opponent’s policies, then they must be a bad thing for Us! Whereas, if the ad had just shown a modern urban Chinese worker brightly explaining in correct and comprehensible English that China acquiring more American debt is better for the Chinese economy than for the American economy, it would have made the same point factually, but without the same gut reaction. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/241 "2012-02-16T03:03:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not so much his race as the racial aspect of his crime. He was a black man who raped a white woman. What made that crime so notorious is not just that it was a horrific act of violence in itself, but also that black-man-rapes-white-woman is a deeply ingrained and highly disturbing racist stereotype in American culture. > > The ad exploited that stereotype to heighten viewers’ negative reactions to the candidate it associated with the crime. > > That’s exactly how racist stereotypes in fearmongering ads work: they stress well-known and unsettling images of a group identified as “alien” and “other”, in order to get the viewers’ negative emotions going more strongly. > > In a much milder way, that’s what the “oriental” stereotypes in the Hoekstra ad are doing: they’re emphasizing that this “Chinese” girl is part of a vaguely menacing “Them” (communists, creditor country, foreign military power, lots of people, exotic scenes, peasants, tongs, Fu Manchu, etc. etc.) that viewers feel vaguely uncomfortable about. If the somewhat sinister foreign “Them” approve of Hoekstra’s opponent’s policies, then they must be a bad thing for Us! > > Whereas, if the ad had just shown a modern urban Chinese worker brightly explaining in correct and comprehensible English that China acquiring more American debt is better for the Chinese economy than for the American economy, it would have made the same point factually, but without the same gut reaction. While I understand the points you make, and agree with most of them, you really didn’t answer what I was asking. Could you try again? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=13)