# Pete Hoekstra **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939 "2012-02-06T05:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/302 "2012-02-26T21:16:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If France held our debt and was a place our jobs was going to, would you object to a pretty girl with a French accent talking to us while sitting outside a Parisian-type cafe? Yeah, but knowing your sophisticated view of the world, that French chick would be carrying a baguette, smell like old cheese, be dressed like she’s a day player at the Moulin Rouge, and got the clap from an American GI. ETA: and she’d probably speak “French” with a Brooklyn accent. “Ok, mes friggin’ amis, je voudrias to take your fuckin’ money and buy some friggin’ wine and shit up in here. Tres bon. Au revoir, vous American pricks!” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/303 "2012-02-26T21:24:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > By the way, Jello for Brains, why do you think the ad has backfired on Hoekstra? If it isn’t the obvious racism, do you think the people of Michigan watched the ad and said, “WTF, Hoekstra, we have to disagree with you on this ad: we LOVE it when our jobs are shipped to China! You have played the wrong card on outsourcing, and we will have none of it! We are now going to vote for Debbie Spenditnow!” > > Of COURSE it is the racism in the ad that turned people off. You have to be stupid not to recognize the cause and effect here. > > Christ, your lack of ability to string two rational thoughts together is starting to scrape the depths of **ralph124c**. Wow. So you don’t even know the difference between correlation and causality. Sigh. Why am I not surprised. I’m also not surprised that you prefer to expend what little mental ability you have on crafting oh-so-lame ad hominems rather than addressing the issue. You still haven’t demonstrated that it is racism, or how it is racism. Yes, it shows someone of another race. But you don’t get to jump from that to RACISM. But please, by all means, roadmap it out for me. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/304 "2012-02-26T21:25:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yeah, but knowing your sophisticated view of the world, that French chick would be carrying a baguette, smell like old cheese, be dressed like she’s a day player at the Moulin Rouge, and got the clap from an American GI. ETA: and she’d probably speak “French” with a Brooklyn accent. > > “Ok, mes friggin’ amis, je voudrias to take your fuckin’ money and buy some friggin’ wine and shit up in here. Tres bon. Au revoir, vous American pricks!” Then it wouldn’t be analogous, would it, dickwit? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/305 "2012-02-26T21:28:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You still haven’t demonstrated that it is racism, or how it is racism. Yes, it shows someone of another race. But you don’t get to jump from that to RACISM. But please, by all means, roadmap it out for me. Have you been tested for having some kind of short-term memory loss syndrome? You might want to check yourself for tattoos, or perhaps notes left in pants pockets. Because we’re on page 8 of a thread in which literally dozens of people have tried to explain what makes the ad racist beyond “shows someone of another race.” So there are not a lot of charitable explanations for where you’re at here, since you posted on the first page of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/306 "2012-02-26T21:29:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But they didn’t even do that! They got an American girl of Chinese extraction with no discernible accent and then, for no good reason, inserted some “pidgin” type errors! Did you miss the the fact that the idea of the ad was frame the issue, with humor, from the point of view of a citizen of China? And that that person, might not speak perfect English? Here’s a question for you. Do you think the girl was portrayed disparagingly? I don’t. She’s very pretty. Well put-together. Very pleasant. They gave her an accent. That’s done everyday in television advertising. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/307 "2012-02-26T21:31:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Have you been tested for having some kind of short-term memory loss syndrome? > > You might want to check yourself for tattoos, or perhaps notes left in pants pockets. > > Because we’re on page 8 of a thread in which literally dozens of people have tried to explain what makes the ad racist beyond “shows someone of another race.” So there are not a lot of charitable explanations for where you’re at here, since you posted on the first page of the thread. Show me one good one that directly addresses the issue. The best one I could find is Post 271. I will give you props for the tattoo line though. Credit where credit is due. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/308 "2012-02-26T21:33:25Z")
Post #240 was directly\* in response to you on this very point\*. I understand and respect that you disagree. But when you act as if you never even read the post, it’s sort of bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/309 "2012-02-26T21:35:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So you don’t even know the difference between correlation and causality. Let me be clear here: are you saying that it was just pure chance that Hoeksta dropped precipitously in the polls after releasing that ad? Because if that’s what you are saying, I can show you polls on how the public reacted to that ad. They hated it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/310 "2012-02-26T21:37:24Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Post #240 was directly\* in response to you on this very point\*. And our very own genius-in-residence said that he _agreed_ with most of what was in that post. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/311 "2012-02-26T21:38:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …They gave her an accent… No, they didn’t. They gave her grammatical errors. She had no accent at all. You funny, me laugh you long time! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/312 "2012-02-26T21:39:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And our very own genius-in-residence said that he _agreed_ with most of what was in that post. I said no such thing! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/313 "2012-02-26T21:51:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I said no such thing! :: slow golf clap :: ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/314 "2012-02-28T01:17:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let me be clear here: are you saying that it was just pure chance that Hoeksta dropped precipitously in the polls after releasing that ad? Because if that’s what you are saying, I can show you polls on how the public reacted to that ad. They hated it. You aren’t aware that far too many of the voting public has very few brain cells to rub together? Now, this ad _might_ be racist there, due to the issues Detroit has with car makers overseas, but in other places we don’t tend to automatically assume that an Asian person is a “them” or an “alien”. And the few intelligent people in Detroit will listen to the message and not get caught up in the idea that the girl in the ad might be working in a car factory overseas. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/315 "2012-02-28T02:22:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You guys are criticizing the style, as if just because there might be a better way to convey the message (in your minds) that this ad must be racist. But people often make a less than optimally effective ad for all kinds of reasons, not the least of which that it often costs more money to make a really good, optimally effective ad. > > Both ads have the same message: America is on the wrong path, and the Chinese are going to eat our lunch because of it. Not because they’re evil, but because we’re being stupid. No, using a negative racial stereotype to vilify someone of a certain race is racism. Removing the racial stereotype removes the racism. Do you not get it? Negative racial stereotypes are by definition racist. The entire concept of a stereotype is that you are alleging that everyone in a certain group does a certain thing. If that certain thing is negative, then you are saying something negative about the entire group. And if that group is an entire race of people, then the stereotype is racist. And using a racist stereotype in earnest is racist. (Using it as a joke depends on whether it is making fun of the concept, which makes it not racist. But no one is alleging this is a joke, so there’s no point in going down that road) There is a U.S. stereotype of someone speaking a very specific modification of English that is about how Chinese people are so stupid they can’t even learn how to speak properly. Or worse, they can speak properly, but don’t bother to try and appear less threatening, when they are really up to something evil. This girl used this stereotype. There might be some justification if that was how she actually spoke, but the fact that she spoke like a Californian that she speaks English natively indicates she is clearly playing into the stereotype. Playing into a racist stereotype is racist. Okay, by the time we got to the end of the thread, magelan is alleging this is a joke. So let’s go down that road, too. Where is this ad making fun of the stereotype as being outdated? It clearly presents it as something normal. No one acts like the girl is doing anything wrong. The message isn’t comedic: it’s disparaging. There is no way this is a joke making fun of racial stereotypes. It’s still racist. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/316 "2012-02-28T04:55:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There is a U.S. stereotype of someone speaking a very specific modification of English that is about how Chinese people are so stupid they can’t even learn how to speak properly. Or worse, they can speak properly, but don’t bother to try and appear less threatening, when they are really up to something evil. This girl used this stereotype. _Really?_ There are people out there dumb enough to think that the only reason a Chinese born person couldn’t speak English cleanly is because they are stupid and/or evil? I don’t know how that translates into racism, but damn that is really idiotic. > [@](#): > > There might be some justification if that was how she actually spoke, but the fact that she spoke like a Californian that she speaks English natively indicates she is clearly playing into the stereotype. Playing into a racist stereotype is racist. Or, it could be that they couldn’t find a Chinese actress who could speak English clearly with a Chinese accent. Or, realizing that their target audience has the brains of firewood, they figured if she didn’t talk the way she did in the ad, they wouldn’t think she was in Chna. I am simply not seeing how recognizing that a native person in a country that doesn’t speak English might not be able to speak it perfectly is a negative racial stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/317 "2012-02-28T05:27:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, using a negative racial stereotype to vilify someone of a certain race is racism. Removing the racial stereotype removes the racism. Now, that’s some funny shit right there. Tell me, what is the “negative racial stereotype”? That a native Chinese woman living in China might speak unbroken English? Why, no, that’s not a racial stereotype. No more than a native of Italy, Brazil, Sweden speaking improper English. Or do you make demands that every person who attempts to speak English speak it perfectly? Or is it that advertisers should never show anyone speaking less than perfect English? Please, pray tell, which is it? > [@BigT](#): > > Do you not get it? Negative racial stereotypes are by definition racist. We’re back to you identifying the negative racial stereotype. Oh, do you think that no Chinese people speak fluent English and that that is the stereotype? > [@BigT](#): > > The entire concept of a stereotype is that you are alleging that everyone in a certain group does a certain thing. If that certain thing is negative, then you are saying something negative about the entire group. And if that group is an entire race of people, then the stereotype is racist. The stupid is so thick in this it might be hard to separate anything out. But I’ll give it a go: If I follow what logic that may be present in that, you seem to be of the mind, that the ad is trying to say that all Chinese people speak imperfect English. At least that’s what logic says you’re trying to say. So, is that it…you think that 1) there is a stereotype that says that Chinese people all speak imperfect English and that 2) the people who created the ad are trying to give credence to that stereotype. Uh, fail, and fail. First you need to get out more. Come to San Francisco where you’ll meet dozens of people everyday who speak English as well as anyone raised in Omaha. True, you might encounter a bunch of Chinese people who speak poor English, as well. But if you do, you might want to entertain the notion that their speaking improper English is not a stereotype, it’s just that immigrants from China (never mind natives living there) very often speak broken English. Just like immigrants from any non-English speaking country. > [@BigT](#): > > And using a racist stereotype in earnest is racist. (Using it as a joke depends on whether it is making fun of the concept, which makes it not racist. But no one is alleging this is a joke, so there’s no point in going down that road). Tell me, when cute Swedish girls are put in Lederhosen to broadly communicate they are from Scandinavia, when a Frenchman is shown with a mustache and beret and speaks imperfect English with a heavy accent, when a member of an African tribe is shown on the savannah and talks to the camera using imperfect English, are those “negative stereotypes”? If not what’s negative about the girl in the commercial. Do you accept that there are plenty of people in China who speak imperfect English? If so, how is showing a pretty young girl with broken English negative. Do you really hold it against people if they speak improper English? Why? If someone has a working knowledge of four languages to the extent that girl can speak English, is that something to be embarrassed about? Or proud of. Me? I think the latter. > [@BigT](#): > > There is a U.S. stereotype of someone speaking a very specific modification of English that is about how Chinese people are so stupid they can’t even learn how to speak properly. As much as I accept you being an authority on stupid, I’m going to have to say you’re wrong here. There is no way in the world that that girl supports ANY negative stereotype. She is very good looking, nicely put together, and seem to be very intelligent. But that means that I do not equate broken English with stupidity. Evidently you do, which is really odd. > [@BigT](#): > > Or worse, they can speak properly, but don’t bother to try and appear less threatening, when they are really up to something evil. This girl used this stereotype. There might be some justification if that was how she actually spoke, but the fact that she spoke like a Californian that she speaks English natively indicates she is clearly playing into the stereotype. Playing into a racist stereotype is racist. Unbelievable. How about that—in movies, TV, and in advertising, the creators of such often use strong cues to quickly set the stage. That’s why the rice paddy is there. That’s why…wait for it…they used someone of Chinese descent. And that is why they had her speak improper English. To support the notion of the ad that “Okay, viewer, we know you know this is just an ad, but make believe that their is a Chinese girl in China communicating to American audiences.” One could possibly argue that it was a tad heavy-handed, but ads are often a bit heavy-handed as to help ensure even the dumb “get it”. Your response argues that they should have been even more heavy handed. > [@BigT](#): > > Okay, by the time we got to the end of the thread, magelan is alleging this is a joke. So let’s go down that road, too. Where is this ad making fun of the stereotype as being outdated? It clearly presents it as something normal. No one acts like the girl is doing anything wrong. The message isn’t comedic: it’s disparaging. There is no way this is a joke making fun of racial stereotypes. So, you don’t think it is normal that someone in China might speak in broken english? :rolleyes: > [@BigT](#): > > It’s still racist. It doesn’t get any truer the more you repeat it. That’s not how it works. So, you’re still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/318 "2012-02-28T06:40:48Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Post #240 was directly\* in response to you on this very point\*. > > I understand and respect that you disagree. But when you act as if you never even read the post, it’s sort of bizarre. What are you talking about? Do you mean Post #240 in which Kimstu attempted to answer a question I asked and I then I responded to in Post 241? And then Kimstu and I discussed in several subsequent posts? Is that the Post 240 that you claim I’m acting as if I never read it? _That_ Post 240? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/319 "2012-02-28T12:54:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, you don’t think it is normal that someone in China might speak in broken english? :rolleyes: > > It doesn’t get any truer the more you repeat it. That’s not how it works. So, you’re still wrong. Forget it, Mag. It’s the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/320 "2012-02-28T14:46:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What are you talking about? Do you mean Post #240 in which Kimstu attempted to answer a question I asked and I then I responded to in Post 241? And then Kimstu and I discussed in several subsequent posts? Is that the Post 240 that you claim I’m acting as if I never read it? _That_ Post 240? That’s the one. I wasn’t questioning whether you read it at the time. My point was that your subsequent straw manning of your opposition’s argument completely forgets the nuanced explanation previously offered. Instead, you barrel ahead as of it were never explained to you that the furor is not for the reasons you posit, like a demented senior citizen who keeps asking where his wife went when she died years ago. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/321 "2012-02-28T15:20:11Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That’s the one. I wasn’t questioning whether you read it at the time. My point was that your subsequent straw manning of your opposition’s argument completely forgets the nuanced explanation previously offered. Instead, you barrel ahead as of it were never explained to you that the furor is not for the reasons you posit, like a demented senior citizen who keeps asking where his wife went when she died years ago. Nah. The tattoo line was a good one. This one, not so much. But thanks for realizing that I actually did read the Post addressed to me as was evidenced by my reply being directly under it and having a discussion about it, even though you claimed I didn’t. You don’t like my position, too bad. But why don’t you offer up a rebuttal to some of the points I’ve been making? And just for the record, let’s use this post as evidence that I read your post above. I even quoted it within this one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=17)