# Pete Hoekstra **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939 "2012-02-06T05:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/81 "2012-02-07T01:31:29Z")
The main difference I see between the two ads is that one had a better budget. In the first one, all they had to do was find someone who looked Chinese and could fake an accent (even if it’s a bad fake). But let me understand the rules here-- if I use an actor with a bad, fake accent, that makes an ad racist. Or, if I put the actor in a stereotypical scene, that makes it even doubly racist. A French guy with the Eifel Tower in the background, saying: _Za cheese een za US is oreeblay_, then that’s racist. Right? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/82 "2012-02-07T01:36:17Z")
I was waiting for the “Debbie Spenditnow, me love you long time”. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/83 "2012-02-07T01:39:08Z")
[Camera opens on greasy lips munching down on a huge burger. Pulls back to reveal hugely obese white guy wearing a stetson, standing next to a saguaro. In the background is the Statue of Liberty.] Thank y’all for all your’n inward investment. Because of the policies of Hu Jintao, y’all are exportin’ y’all’s money to car factories in the good ol’ US of A and givin’ us jobs while most of y’all can’t even afford to buy a goddamn car. Yee haw! Ride’em cowboy! Let’s invade Iran! [Shoots six-shooter in the air.] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/84 "2012-02-07T01:41:38Z")
Let’s look at if from another perspective. Let’s say some Chinese politician is running a negative ad in which he wants some American to play a part. The American is a guy in jeans, cowboy boots and hat, big belt buckle, and he comes on screen and says: “Howdy, pardner.” Would you Americans actually be offended by that? I’d think it was pretty damn funny. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/85 "2012-02-07T01:44:34Z")
A helpful primer for SDMB race debates: Many conservatives understand racism to mean a conscious belief that members of a given race are inferior in some aspect. Many liberals understand racism to include other things, like any kind of racial stereotyping (positive or negative), use of race simply as a group marker to play on us-and-them mentalities, or unconscious associations. Thus, many liberals find the arbitrary use of race or racial stereotypes, especially in the context of “us” vs. “them,” to be racist. It just isn’t a requirement – in this view of what is racist – for there to be an implication that the “them” is inferior. Feel free to argue that one view or the other is the correct view of racism. But for God’s sake, do we need another thread in which both sides insist on ignoring the other side’s view of what racism is? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/86 "2012-02-07T01:48:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Chinese Professor Ad](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSQozWP-rM) > > OK, here’s a similar ad with the guy actually speaking Chinese, with subtitles. Had the Hoekstra ad done something similar, would it have still been racist? There’s still a bit of the smug, sneering moustache twirling villain going on here. But at least it’s not quite as stereotypical and demeaning as the one in the OP - high education setting, slick architecture, high tech gear, no silly accent… This is China Knows Its Shit, not Chinamen Vely Funny, so no, not racist. Just retarded. [QUOTE=Marley23] [Here’s the website Hoekstra’s people set up for people who watched the ad.](http://debbiespenditnow.com/) [/QUOTE] Oh man. Fans, teapots, the Great Wall, dragons, paper lanterns, stylized lions, that asian looking Word font… but where is the fortune cookie and the wizened old guy caressing his pearly white Fu Manchu ?! I’m docking them asshat points for missing something that obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/87 "2012-02-07T01:49:10Z")
Ah, yes. This is one of those arguments in which it turns out the side arguing it’s not racism is perfectly happy with it being called bigotry, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/88 "2012-02-07T02:01:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for the actress “really” being an American of Chinese decent, would anyone have thought otherwise? I thought that was being speculated about, yes. > [@](#): > > Both are meant to convey some information, visually and orally, without an arrow pointing to the people saying telling you exactly who the person was supposed to represent. Agreed. And the same information could have been conveyed by a character who doesn’t work on a rice paddy and speaks better English. That arguably would have made more sense, too. (The bike thing doesn’t mean anything to me one way or the other.) The ad you proposed seems fine to me - it’s alarmist, but the point Hoekstra is making is alarmist, so that’s a given. Using a professor speaking in Chinese doesn’t involve any stereotypes that I know of. And yes, we’re commenting on the presentation more than the content here. That was always the case. You can discuss the U.S. debt and China in a sober way, or you can do it in a ridiculous way that includes cartoony Chinese music and a rice paddy worker who speaks broken English. You can talk about crime or single fatherhood and black people in a way that addresses the problems and suggests you want to do something about it, or you can make a commercial about basketball playing gangbangers named DeShonDre who talk like guys in '80s rap videos while bragging about white people they robbed and how they spent their welfare checks. They might be about the same topic, but they say different things and they certainly make very different statements about your perceptions and your intent. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/89 "2012-02-07T02:03:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So your strategy is to win by declaring that nobody else is making an argument. I agree that you’ve made that declaration, so according to **Rand Rover** ’s rules of order, you win. Your undefeated record remains intact. You can read the thread for comprehension or not, but I’m not going to copy and paste it. And your strategy appears to be to just assert a proposition and shout down those who disagree with you. I’ll stick with asking people to make an argument, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/90 "2012-02-07T02:06:42Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Dude, it’s right there in post #26. You might not like it, but it’s an argument. Here it is again, since you apparently can’t read and prefer to just whine. > You may notice that **John Mace** provided a critique of the argument and there was a bit of give-and-take. You know, like adults talking instead of you throwing your shit around. 1. Post #26 came after Marley23’s post that I’m trying to educate him about and is orthogonal to the point I’m making in my posts to Marley. 2. Post #26 doesn’t make an argument. At best it outlines a potential argument. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/91 "2012-02-07T02:06:52Z")
I think **Rand Rover** has everyone else in this thread on his ignore list. Now now, dry your eyes, everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/92 "2012-02-07T02:11:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think **Rand Rover** has everyone else in this thread on his ignore list. Now now, dry your eyes, everyone. Apparently he defines “an argument” as “something I can argue against.” Kinda funny to watch him flail. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/93 "2012-02-07T02:11:58Z")
Well, the ad seems to have [lost Hoekstra the support](http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/asian-american-elected-goper-turns-on-hoekstra-after-ad.php) of one Asian-American GOP elected official. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/94 "2012-02-07T02:14:28Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > Well, the ad seems to have [lost Hoekstra the support](http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/asian-american-elected-goper-turns-on-hoekstra-after-ad.php) of one Asian-American GOP elected official. Couldn’t be. It’s just those annoying liberals being offended on the behalf of someone else who might just find the ad funny. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/95 "2012-02-07T02:20:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think **Rand Rover** has everyone else in this thread on his ignore list. Now now, dry your eyes, everyone. > [@Bosstone](#): > > Apparently he defines “an argument” as “something I can argue against.” Kinda funny to watch him flail. More proof that you idiots don’t know what an argument is. As if I needed any. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/96 "2012-02-07T02:22:40Z")
You never needed any proof yet, why spoil a perfect record? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/97 "2012-02-07T02:25:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > 1. Post #26 came after Marley23’s post that I’m trying to educate him about and is orthogonal to the point I’m making in my posts to Marley. > > 2. Post #26 doesn’t make an argument. At best it outlines a potential argument. Here is an argument that I hope meets your criteria for what makes up an argument: 1. Assumption: \*\*Racism \*\* is hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. 2. Assumption: A **stereotype** is a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group 3. From 1 and 2 we could conclude fairly that a **racial stereotype** is a simplified and standardized conception or image based on hatred or intolerance of another race or races. 4. According to **[this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_East_Asians_in_the_Western_world)** wikipedia article, two common stereotypes of East Asians by westerners include stealing our jobs and possessing poor English speaking skills. 5. On the website linked in the video, the quote “We take your jobs,” is printed verbatim. This sentiment is also implicitly suggested when the speaker says that Chinese economy is rising while America’s is falling. 6. In the video, the speaker uses broken English. 7. By 3, 4, 5 and 6, it is clear that the advertisement plays to racial stereotypes and is thus a form of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/98 "2012-02-07T02:27:43Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Here is an argument that I hope meets your criteria for what makes up an argument: I’m not sure that’s up to par. Can you rephrase it as a 300-page harangue? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/99 "2012-02-07T02:31:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure that’s up to par. Can you rephrase it as a 300-page harangue? hehehe… NO! ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/100 "2012-02-07T03:04:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Thus, many liberals find the arbitrary use of race or racial stereotypes, especially in the context of “us” vs. “them,” to be racist. It just isn’t a requirement – in this view of what is racist – for there to be an implication that the “them” is inferior. > > Feel free to argue that one view or the other is the correct view of racism. But for God’s sake, do we need another thread in which both sides insist on ignoring the other side’s view of what racism is? There was nothing arbitrary about the racial stereotypes on display in that add. There were all right out of the classic Yellow Peril ads meant to scare people about the Treacherous Orientals. That’s why people think it’s a racist ad: because it uses symbolism from previous racist ads (coolie hats, rice paddies, “Engrish”) to frighten viewers about the idea of encroaching Asian hordes. It’s the same message from previous racist ads from years ago. Conservative claims that somehow, _this_ time, those specifically chosen symbols aren’t racist because, hey - it’s all true! are just as specious and laughable as those Conservative idiots who sent out the postcard of watermelons on the Whitehouse lawn, claiming that they’d never heard of the stereotype of blacks liking watermelons. ETA: Also, I hope they paid that actress a ridiculous amount of money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=6)