# Pete Hoekstra **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939 "2012-02-06T05:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/101 "2012-02-07T03:12:06Z")
Odd thing for me is that she seemed to have no detectable “Chinese” accent to her English, which means that was chosen, planned. After all, it would be no problem finding someone who spoke just as clear an English, but with an accent appropriate to a native speaker in their home land. So, at one and the same time, the ad urges us to think of her as being an actual Chinese person, even adding some clumsy grammar for effect. Yet having the words spoken by an actress with no dectectable accent of any kind, much less Chinese! Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/102 "2012-02-07T03:12:56Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Here is an argument that I hope meets your criteria for what makes up an argument: > > 1. Assumption: \*\*Racism \*\* is hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. > > 2. Assumption: A **stereotype** is a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group > > 3. From 1 and 2 we could conclude fairly that a **racial stereotype** is a simplified and standardized conception or image based on hatred or intolerance of another race or races. > > 4. According to **[this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_East_Asians_in_the_Western_world)** wikipedia article, two common stereotypes of East Asians by westerners include stealing our jobs and possessing poor English speaking skills. > > 5. On the website linked in the video, the quote “We take your jobs,” is printed verbatim. This sentiment is also implicitly suggested when the speaker says that Chinese economy is rising while America’s is falling. > > 6. In the video, the speaker uses broken English. > > 7. By 3, 4, 5 and 6, it is clear that the advertisement plays to racial stereotypes and is thus a form of racism. Well, you tried. So you get a response: 1. You don’t clearly state the proposition you are making an argument for. By your last line, one assumes the proposition you are trying to argue for is that “the advertisement . . . is . . . a form of racism,” but it is not possible for an advertisement itself to be “hatred or intolerance of another race or racisms.” There’s a disconnect there–you are saying that a thing is an idea. It just doesn’t make sense. 2. Let’s assume that the proposition you were really going for was that the ad tends to show that Hoekstra is a racist (defined for this purpose from your definition of racism as “a person who harbors hatred or intolerance of another race or races”). In that case, your argument is flawed because you never define what “playing to racial stereotypes” means. 3. Finally, if your argument proves anything, then your argument proves too much. In addition to proving that this ad is a form of racism, you have also proven that almost every rap song is a form of racism because rap songs depict black Americans talking in a stereotypical black American way and often include themes that are stereotypes of the black American experience (e.g., ballin’ with the bling, etc. & etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/103 "2012-02-07T03:18:36Z")
Here’s the real argument you idiots would make if you were honest: 1. The ad is made by a white male Republican. 2. It deals with themes I barely understand and don’t want to think about (i.e., the effect of heavy government spending on the US). 3. It features a non-white person in a way that does not either (a) celebrate the non-white person’s culture or (b) show how white people have made life worse for the non-white person. 4. Therefore, the ad is racist. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/104 "2012-02-07T03:23:03Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, you tried. So you get a response: > > 1. You don’t clearly state the proposition you are making an argument for. By your last line, one assumes the proposition you are trying to argue for is that “the advertisement . . . is . . . a form of racism,” but it is not possible for an advertisement itself to be “hatred or intolerance of another race or racisms.” There’s a disconnect there–you are saying that a thing is an idea. It just doesn’t make sense. > > 2. Let’s assume that the proposition you were really going for was that the ad tends to show that Hoekstra is a racist (defined for this purpose from your definition of racism as “a person who harbors hatred or intolerance of another race or races”). In that case, your argument is flawed because you never define what “playing to racial stereotypes” means. > > 3. Finally, if your argument proves anything, then your argument proves too much. > > In addition to proving that this ad is a form of racism, you have also proven that almost every rap song is a form of racism because rap songs depict black Americans talking in a stereotypical black American way and often include themes that are stereotypes of the black American experience (e.g., ballin’ with the bling, etc. & etc.). Allow me to revise my argument based on your suggestions. My sincerest apologies for my mistakes. I have no law-school training nor training in formal logic, so your patience is very appreciated. Proposition: The advertisement linked at the beginning of this thread is an **example of racism**. 1. Assumption: \*\*Racism \*\*is hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. 1A) From 1, an **example of racism** is an idea, action or thing that demonstrates hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. 1. Assumption: A stereotype is a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group 2. From 1 and 2 we could conclude fairly that a racial stereotype is a simplified and standardized conception or image based on hatred or intolerance of another race or races. 3. According to this wikipedia article, two common stereotypes of East Asians by westerners include stealing our jobs and possessing poor English speaking skills. 4. On the website linked in the video, the quote “We take your jobs,” is printed verbatim. This sentiment is also implicitly suggested when the speaker says that Chinese economy is rising while America’s is falling. 5. In the video, the speaker uses broken English. 6. By 3, 4, 5 and 6, it is clear that the advertisement \*\*contains \*\*racial stereotypes and is thus an **example of racism**. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/105 "2012-02-07T03:24:32Z")
In my opinion, there is an unspoken question here: who would have underwritten our debt if China has decided to demure? We obviously are dependent upon foreign investment to support our debt. It isn’t a frivolous question and perhaps deserves its own thread. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/106 "2012-02-07T03:28:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Here’s the real argument you idiots would make if you were honest: > > 1. The ad is made by a white male Republican. > > 2. It deals with themes I barely understand and don’t want to think about (i.e., the effect of heavy government spending on the US). > > 3. It features a non-white person in a way that does not either (a) celebrate the non-white person’s culture or (b) show how white people have made life worse for the non-white person. > > 4. Therefore, the ad is racist. Your argument does not contain a proposition, but based on 4, I suppose your proposition is that “the ad is racist.” Unfortunately you never defined what racist means, so your argument is worthless. You also made no logical connection between the importance of 1, 2 and 3… Also, addressing us as idiots is an ad hominem attack, and is an informal logical fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/107 "2012-02-07T03:39:09Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Here’s the real argument you idiots would make if you were honest: > > 1. The ad is made by a white male Republican. > > 2. It deals with themes I barely understand and don’t want to think about (i.e., the effect of heavy government spending on the US). > > 3. It features a non-white person in a way that does not either (a) celebrate the non-white person’s culture or (b) show how white people have made life worse for the non-white person. > > 4. Therefore, the ad is racist. Holy shit you are a dumb fuck. Not that this is a new discovery for anybody, but just look at the idiocy in this post, especially when multiple perfectly clear arguments describing why this ad is seen by some as racist have been made. And just to highlight the depths of your stupidity, reconsider point number 2 in the context of a political commercial comparing the US disfavorably with respect to the fucking People’s Republic of China. Talk about your heavy government spending… And FTR, I would consider the Chinese ad featuring the stereotypical “American” to be racist as fuck too. “Racist” doesn’t automatically mean “the worst thing ever”. After all, everybody is a little bit racist some times. Hell, some of the funniest humor is racist. This ad was racist, but not to some horrible extreme. It was also pretty dumb and unconvincing. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/108 "2012-02-07T03:45:55Z")
Current Wikipedia entry for Pete Hoekstra: > [@](#): > > Peter “Pete” Hoekstra (born October 30, 1953) is before Republican U.S. Representative. He Michigan’s 2nd congressional district served House 1993 until 2011. He not successful candidate Governor of Michigan in 2010. He promoting him candidate for Senate against Debbie Spenditnow in 2012. He not lacist. He berry berry good man. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/109 "2012-02-07T04:01:33Z")
Already fixed. But I have a screen cap. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/110 "2012-02-07T05:39:29Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Holy shit you are a dumb fuck… And I missed it! What are the chances? I have ONE SINGLE poster on Ignore, and suddenly I’m missing out on dazzling leaps of logic. And I’m just that much less entertained. Darn. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/111 "2012-02-07T05:39:48Z")
Fear the power of the internet! Dammit, digs! That was for the wiki edit. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/112 "2012-02-07T07:28:51Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > A helpful primer for SDMB race debates: > > Many conservatives understand racism to mean a conscious belief that members of a given race are inferior in some aspect. > > Many liberals understand racism to include other things, like any kind of racial stereotyping (positive or negative), use of race simply as a group marker to play on us-and-them mentalities, or unconscious associations. > > Thus, many liberals find the arbitrary use of race or racial stereotypes, especially in the context of “us” vs. “them,” to be racist. It just isn’t a requirement – in this view of what is racist – for there to be an implication that the “them” is inferior. > > Feel free to argue that one view or the other is the correct view of racism. But for God’s sake, do we need another thread in which both sides insist on ignoring the other side’s view of what racism is? Makes sense - no wonder I can’t figure out why some people think the ad is so horribly racist. Do they really believe that no one in China would talk like that? (It doesn’t sound remotely Charlie Chan to me, but then I only looked at the ad once.) Can you explain what the problem is with portraying her on a bicycle near fields? Seems to me that if the ad was supposed to be racist, it would show someone in old traditional clothes eating food with chopsticks or something, not a girl who could be anywhere. Of course, it doesn’t help when even a mod stoops to the “you’re stupid, no you are” schtick. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/113 "2012-02-07T07:47:33Z")
I had a go at the Chinese characters on the Hoekstracist page (which amusingly are the traditional form not used in China) and got: $花 =\> Dollar flower? 繁榮 =\> The economy is flourishing 長珹的債務 =\> ??? Can someone better at Chinese help me out? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/114 "2012-02-07T07:53:59Z")
“There is great confusion under Hoekstra, and the situation is excellent!” It’s a Mao quote. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/115 "2012-02-07T09:16:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > [Quite](http://sas.guidespot.com/bundles/guides_0d/assets/widget_aYikmf1ajaij2DqAqg_1rQ.jpg) [so](http://www.animationresources.org/pics/propaganda2teaser-big.jpg). > Oooh, but the Chinese stereotype riding her bicycle in the rice paddies with her straw hat is purdy, so that ain’t racist none ! No, no, no. Life Magazine ran an article (complete with pictures!) on [HOW TO TELL JAPS FROM THE CHINESE](http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/posterlifetext.html) because “ANGRY CITIZENS VICTIMIZE ALLIES WITH EMOTIONAL OUTBURST AT ENEMY.” It’s almost reminiscent of post 9/11 violence being directed at Hindus. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/116 "2012-02-07T09:36:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “There is great confusion under Hoekstra, and the situation is excellent!” It’s a Mao quote. That not Mao quote, that fortune cookie! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/117 "2012-02-07T10:30:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Fact: We owe China a gazillion dollars. … Where “a gazillion” equals 8% of the debt, > [@](#): > > Hong Kong > Percent of US Debt: 0.9% > > Caribbean Banking Centers > Percent of US Debt: 1% > > Taiwan > Percent of US Debt: 1.1% > > Brazil > Percent of US Debt: 1.5% > > Oil Exporting Countries > Percent of US Debt: 1.6% > > Mutual Funds > Percent of US Debt: 2% > > Commercial Banks > Percent of US Debt: 2.1% > > State, Local, and Federal Retirement Funds > Percent of US Debt: 2.2% > > Money Market Mutual Funds > Percent of US Debt: 2.4% > > United Kingdom > Percent of US Debt: 2.4% > > Private Pension Funds > Percent of US Debt: 3.5% > > State and Local Governments > Percent of US Debt: 3.5% > > Japan > Percent of US Debt: 6.4% > > US Households > Percent of US Debt: 6.6% > > China > Percent of US Debt: 8% > > The Federal Reserve > Percent of US Debt: 11.3% > > Social Security Trust Fund > Percent of US Debt: 19% > > In all, the Treasury owes foreigners and foreign governments $4.514 trillion dollars > But Americans own most of their own country’s $14,342,909,569,328.74 of debt.[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.businessinsider.com/who-owns-us-debt-2011-7?op=1)[/RIGHT] CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/118 "2012-02-07T10:51:23Z")
It’s about as racist as showing a Frenchman riding around in stripy shirt with garlic round his neck or a bunch of fat loud American’s waddling around London demanding to see the queen. A little bit racist? Maybe. But everyone’s a little bit racist. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/119 "2012-02-07T12:44:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Chinese Professor Ad](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSQozWP-rM) > > OK, here’s a similar ad with the guy actually speaking Chinese, with subtitles. Had the Hoekstra ad done something similar, would it have still been racist? Using the (yet to be proven) success of a command economy to criticize temporary government intervention? The Chinese didn’t have money to lend when this all started: they had cheap, cheap labor, and we sent in the entreprenuers. As their economy grew, they acquired money to lend because they paid their labor diddly-squat. Eventually they developed their own entrepreneurs, but these people are all connected to the old party hacks who really run the show. Boom China is not 1950’s Boom America, a consumer society of new cars and houses and spending money to fill 40 free hours each week. Here’s an ad that wouldn’t be racist: same girl, same accent, but since the average Chinese sees no difference between the Republicans and the Demorcrats (because…there really isn’t any). She wouldn’t say “Democrats spendee! Me Likee!” She’d say “I’m riding a bicycle and working 100 hours a week in an i-phone factory so you Americans can have a standard of living ten times higher than us? _Dershtikt zolstu veren_!\*” (\*Yiddish for “I hope you choke on it!”) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/120 "2012-02-07T12:55:57Z")
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