# Pete Hoekstra **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939 "2012-02-06T05:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/141 "2012-02-07T21:31:44Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Really? > > I doubt there’s more than a few people that long for the days of sharecropping vs the vast number who want to ride the open range. > > Americans romanticize the idea of “farming” and an old-timey pastoral, agrarian ideal but we don’t romanticize the farmers themselves. For all the stereotypes about being down to earth, humble, and hardworking, we also consider them poorly educated, uncultured hicks with hardly 2 pennies to rub together. > > So fine, if there was instead, an obese American farmer shotgun in hand “thanking” China for screwing up, chewing on a tobacco leaf and sucking down white lightning out of a jug labeled ‘xxxxx’ while lecherously eying his slack-jawed son (or daughter), that would only be funny and not offensive? Beat me to it. How many 4-year-olds living in high rises in Shanghai say, when they grow up, they want to be “an astronaut, or a peasant”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/142 "2012-02-07T22:01:52Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Really? > > I doubt there’s more than a few people that long for the days of sharecropping vs the vast number who want to ride the open range. > > Americans romanticize the idea of “farming” and an old-timey pastoral, agrarian ideal but we don’t romanticize the farmers themselves. For all the stereotypes about being down to earth, humble, and hardworking, we also consider them poorly educated, uncultured hicks with hardly 2 pennies to rub together. > > So fine, if there was instead, an obese American farmer shotgun in hand “thanking” China for screwing up, chewing on a tobacco leaf and sucking down white lightning out of a jug labeled ‘xxxxx’ while lecherously eying his slack-jawed son (or daughter), that would only be funny and not offensive? Well, yes. I think the difference is that in the case you describe, there is a definite effort to portray Americans in a negative light. To make them look ugly, unrefined and immoral. In the Hoekstra ad, the woman is attractive, the setting is picturesque, and the negativity is focused on the American politician the guy is running against. The accent is clumsy, but I don’t see that people need to hire Meryl Streep in order to avoid charges of racism. We see bad, fake accents on TV all the time, and it isn’t inherently racist. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/143 "2012-02-07T22:07:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > but if they just did the broken English, I know this is useless because you’ll just be an asshole and not bother to answer, but I’ll try - do you really think that everyone in China speaks perfect English? Hell, not everyone _here_ does! Do you _really honestly_ think she sounds like Charlie Chan? Are you not old enough to have seen his films? > [@](#): > > the hat, What’s wrong with her hat? > [@](#): > > the rice paddy They don’t grow rice in China? > [@](#): > > and the Chinese-sounding music and underplayed the accent, I didn’t notice the music and I assume they underplayed the accent to make sure everyone could understand her message. Other than what she says, I really cannot see how this ad would be any different than, say, an ad with an actor playing an Italian selling spaghetti sauce. Is that racist too, or just a silly stereotype? I really think that the “racist” response is because of what she says, not how she looks. I don’t think that you all would have even noticed her if she had been shilling rice or frozen Chinese dinners. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/144 "2012-02-07T22:12:40Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Watch that shit. I think **John Mace** is being startlingly obtuse in this thread, but I’ll be damned if I think he’s in any way racist himself. I think someone who doesn’t see the racism in that ad is either being deliberately ignorant or so racist that they lose the capability of thinking anything’s racist. Its almost worse when someone thinks that shit’s normal ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/145 "2012-02-07T22:14:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, yes. I think the difference is that in the case you describe, there is a definite effort to portray Americans in a negative light. To make them look ugly, unrefined and immoral. > > In the Hoekstra ad, the woman is attractive, the setting is picturesque, and the negativity is focused on the American politician the guy is running against. The accent is clumsy, but I don’t see that people need to hire Meryl Streep in order to avoid charges of racism. We see bad, fake accents on TV all the time, and it isn’t inherently racist. It isn’t the charms of the actress, it is the portrayal of specific negative stereotypes that is attracting ire. Put it this way: I personally like watermellon. I eat it all the time. I have nothing against it. I also like old-time jive music. But if someone was running an ad against Obama that prominently featured handsome Black men eating watermelon and dancing to jive music, the suspicion would be - in spite of the fact that none of these things are bad in and of themselves - that the maker of the ad intended the audience to understand a certain message. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/146 "2012-02-07T22:16:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In the Hoekstra ad, the woman is attractive, the setting is picturesque, and the negativity is focused on the American politician the guy is running against. The accent is clumsy, but I don’t see that people need to hire Meryl Streep in order to avoid charges of racism. We see bad, fake accents on TV all the time, and it isn’t inherently racist. Just a few questions here. You are of course familiar with the concept of the Yellow Peril. Do you believe that the root of the Yellow Peril issue was simply an economic issue that was essentially blind to the issue of race, in which Americans were concerned about loss of jobs from foreign competition? Or do you believe that the Yellow Peril issue was based heavily in intolerance and racism so as to exacerbate the economic dispute of Chinese immigration to the US and its impacts? Because I think if one sees the Yellow Peril as being a racist fear campaign from its inception through the last century, the close associations between this ad and the Yellow Peril propaganda are obvious (if a little more subdued than the buffoonish caricatures of earlier times). If one is in denial of the implicit racism in the Yellow Peril theme, then I can see how one would not see the ad as being racist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/147 "2012-02-07T23:50:44Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Watch that shit. I think **John Mace** is being startlingly obtuse in this thread, but I’ll be damned if I think he’s in any way racist himself. He’s frequently obtuse when it comes to how stupid, hateful, greedy and racist conservatives causes can be. Although I do have to say that it is so obvious and overblown here that it gives away the game. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/148 "2012-02-08T00:29:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Just a few questions here. You are of course familiar with the concept of the Yellow Peril. > > Do you believe that the root of the Yellow Peril issue was simply an economic issue that was essentially blind to the issue of race, in which Americans were concerned about loss of jobs from foreign competition? > > Or do you believe that the Yellow Peril issue was based heavily in intolerance and racism so as to exacerbate the economic dispute of Chinese immigration to the US and its impacts? > > Because I think if one sees the Yellow Peril as being a racist fear campaign from its inception through the last century, the close associations between this ad and the Yellow Peril propaganda are obvious (if a little more subdued than the buffoonish caricatures of earlier times). If one is in denial of the implicit racism in the Yellow Peril theme, then I can see how one would not see the ad as being racist. Here’s where I stand on it, and I’ve given the commercial a lot of thought since I saw it. I just don’t think the commercial is racist, even though I totally see the yellow peril part of it clear as day. At least I don’t think the racism is the point. The ad is a new strain of the old “us against them” bit. That’s all. That’s where the yellow peril comes in. Ya can’t use terrorists these days. Muslim extremism is so four years ago before the economy crapped out (mainly because of crackers, but that’s besides the point). Now we worry about the economy and jobs moving overseas. Where are they going? Asia. Thusly you get an asian girl and slap her on a bike. She love your job long time. It’s simplistic. God knows it’s fucking stupid. Clumsy as hell. But is it racist? Because she’s riding a bike? Speaking simple english? By that standard, 90% of every black character shown in a movie is racist. Every time you put a hindu or arab in a taxi/convenience store is racist. Mexican doing gardening? Racist. There are tons of reasons to hate this commercial. It’s overly simplistic fear mongering rubbish designed to pander to the “tookyerjobs” type of voter. You can even say that it uses a stereotype. It’s just not racist. Calling it racist is stretching the definition to include just about everything that the entertainment industry has ever done. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/149 "2012-02-08T00:30:31Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > He’s frequently obtuse when it comes to how stupid, hateful, greedy and racist conservatives causes can be. Although I do have to say that it is so obvious and overblown here that it gives away the game. And of course you are totally non-judgemental and bias free. That’s why you’re such a perfect judge of these kinds of things. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/150 "2012-02-08T00:33:33Z")
:rolleyes: > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fact: The budget was in surplus when the Republicans in Washington, whose numbers Hoekstra seeks to join, decided to give themselves a heapin’ helpin’ of tax cuts. Nothing to do with the charge of racism. :rolleyes::rolleyes: > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fact: The Republicans have held the functioning of the government, unemployment benefits, Planned Parenthood funding, and the national credit rating hostage in order to keep those budget-busting tax cuts for the wealthy. Nothing to do with the charge of racism. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fact: Bicycling through a rice paddy to stop and speak in broken English is what’s known as a stereotype. You seem to not know what a stereotype is. What you described is not one. Tell me, which part of what you describe is “stereotypical”? Be specific now, so I won’t think your pulling a fast one and running loose with the facts: A very attractive Chinese-looking girl in a place that looks like China? A bicycle in China? A Chinese girl riding a bike? A rice paddy in China? A Chinese girl in China speaking good, but imperfect English. Please be specific, so I can have the full benefit of your thought processes. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fact: Using stereotypes to play on racism and xenophobia is what’s known as race-baiting. Look up “Begging the Question” fallacy, wouldya? Sheeze, you guys are fucking comical with how easily you cry RACISM! Newsflash: there are other races in the world and when they are included in a discussion, it doesn’t equate to RACISM! What a weak-minded little liberal monkey you are. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/151 "2012-02-08T00:34:07Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > There are tons of reasons to hate this commercial. It’s overly simplistic fear mongering rubbish designed to pander to the “tookyerjobs” type of voter. You can even say that it uses a stereotype. It’s just not racist. Calling it racist is stretching the definition to include just about everything that the entertainment industry has ever done. In other words it’s bigotry, just not the apparently ultra-specific strain of bigotry some folk reserve the word racism for. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/152 "2012-02-08T00:37:08Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > In other words it’s bigotry, just not the apparently ultra-specific strain of bigotry some folk reserve the word racism for. EXACTLY! Now you’re getting it!!! ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/153 "2012-02-08T00:47:39Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > In other words it’s bigotry, just not the apparently ultra-specific strain of bigotry some folk reserve the word racism for. You didn’t address any of my other examples. How is it worse than showing a black guy wearing his pants on the ground? A hispanic landscaper. A jewish lawyer or accountant. A stereotype can be racist, but is not automatically so. We have in this commercial a woman who is supposed to live in china riding a bike by a rice paddy and speaking less than perfect english. That’s not racist. It’s just not. No more racist than any hispanic person I’ve ever seen in a movie that’s set in “Mexico.” It’s certainly not even close to Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany’s. Again: Tons of reasons to attack and hate this commercial. Racism just isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/154 "2012-02-08T00:48:52Z")
Sure. It’s probably more nationalist than racist, really. But it’s still bigoted, in that there’s a Them we should be fearing/hating for no other reason than that they’re not Us. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/155 "2012-02-08T00:53:31Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Sure. It’s probably more nationalist than racist, really. But it’s still bigoted, in that there’s a Them we should be fearing/hating for no other reason than that they’re not Us. Maybe I’m just too jaded, but to me it’s just politics. Fucked up for sure, but politicians have been doing it since I was a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/156 "2012-02-08T01:00:10Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Maybe I’m just too jaded, but to me it’s just politics. Fucked up for sure, but politicians have been doing it since I was a kid. It’s bigotry being used in the service of politics, yes. That doesn’t make it okay, although outrage fatigue is certainly a real thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/157 "2012-02-08T01:11:59Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > And of course you are totally non-judgemental and bias free. That’s why you’re such a perfect judge of these kinds of things. I’ve never claimed to be either non-judgmental, nor bias free. My bias is liberal and consistently disclosed except for sarcastic posts. And I judge people and things and make no bones about it. I’ve watched JM for several years now. He turns a blind eye towards most conservative excess, yet tsk, tsk’s similar or more mild behavior in liberals. The claim of his to be non-biased is full of poop. The defense of this racist ad and its appeal to racism and xenophobia is just bizarre. The general conservative defense of it now is that the media and fiction do stereotyping and racism the same way, so it must be okay. No it isn’t, even if this particular ad were artfully done. It’s an appeal to racists and xenophobes. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/158 "2012-02-08T01:38:08Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > It’s bigotry being used in the service of politics, yes. That doesn’t make it okay, although outrage fatigue is certainly a real thing. It’s not even outrage fatigue. It’s tiresome and predictable that a person who doesn’t want to take the time to craft an agenda will reach for the simplistic. I won’t tell you who I am, because it’s enough to know that I’m not with them. Asians. Muslims. Communists. Democrats. Republicans (though democrats do it far less, they still do it). > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’ve never claimed to be either non-judgmental, nor bias free. My bias is liberal and consistently disclosed except for sarcastic posts. And I judge people and things and make no bones about it. I’ve watched JM for several years now. He turns a blind eye towards most conservative excess, yet tsk, tsk’s similar or more mild behavior in liberals. The claim of his to be non-biased is full of poop. The defense of this racist ad and its appeal to racism and xenophobia is just bizarre. The general conservative defense of it now is that the media and fiction do stereotyping and racism the same way, so it must be okay. No it isn’t, even if this particular ad were artfully done. It’s an appeal to racists and xenophobes. Ah. So you’ll tell me how the ad is any more racist than the examples I’ve given. Since he’s clearly wrong and you’re clearly right. How is this ad more racist than footage of a black man playing basketball and speaking in heavy slang/poor english? More racist than Apu on The Simpsons? Than any asian computer geek or martial artist? How is it more racist than any other common display of a possible stereotype in the media? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/159 "2012-02-08T02:36:39Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > You didn’t address any of my other examples. How is it worse than showing a black guy wearing his pants on the ground? A hispanic landscaper. A jewish lawyer or accountant. A stereotype can be racist, but is not automatically so. > > We have in this commercial a woman who is supposed to live in china riding a bike by a rice paddy and speaking less than perfect english. That’s not racist. It’s just not. No more racist than any hispanic person I’ve ever seen in a movie that’s set in “Mexico.” It’s certainly not even close to Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany’s. > > Again: Tons of reasons to attack and hate this commercial. Racism just isn’t one of them. Do you think the Willie Horton ad was racist? How about the Jesse Helms “Hands” ad? (Google that one in case you don’t remember it.) ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939/160 "2012-02-08T02:45:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you think the Willie Horton ad was racist? How about the Jesse Helms “Hands” ad? (Google that one in case you don’t remember it.) Yes, but not nearly as much as they were simple fear mongering. Now answer my question. How is the depiction of a chinese girl riding a bike by a rice paddy and speaking clear but slightly poor english more racist than any of my examples? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-hoekstra/611939.md?page=9)