# Pete Townshend v. Ray Davies. Who's the better Songwriter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 12, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028 "2008-04-12T13:34:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/1 "2008-04-12T13:34:51Z")
I’m a big fan of The Who and The Kinks. Pete is justifiably considered one of the greatest rock songwriters, but I think Ray Davies gets over-looked when people talk about the legends. These guys were/are contemporaries. Who do you think is better? They both write clever lyrics and did quite a bit of experimenting with styles over the years, but my preference is Davies. The tipping point for me is the _Give the People What They want_ album. Late in their career (1982) Davies delivers this (IMO) masterpiece. Just a tour de force of a rock album, with only one clunker (_Predictable_.) ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/2 "2008-04-12T15:10:34Z")
Apples and oranges, I think. To completely oversimplify, Pete’s songs are born from things going on inside him; Ray is the wry observer of life going on around him. BTW, Ray just finished a mini solo tour in the States. What a treat it was to spend the evening with him in San Francisco a couple of weeks ago. He was in a great mood, and in fine voice. The Warfield was the perfect venue, holding just a couple thousand fans. We sang along at the top of our lungs all night and walked out with huge grins on our faces. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/3 "2008-04-12T15:21:53Z")
Pete. Much as I like the Kinks, their body of work isn’t quit as strong. If you just pick the top songs, it’s a draw, but Townsend wrote fewer so-so songs. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/4 "2008-04-12T15:38:05Z")
Ray’s stuff takes on a brilliant new meaning ten years later. His solo album sucked, but in 8 years I’ll appreciate it for its ironic genius. Pete’s stuff is generally better, but it’s been a while. **White City** was, what, 25 years ago? Every cut still rings true. Wish he’d get back in the game. If they were playing at competing venues on the same night, I’d have to go see Pete Townshend. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/5 "2008-04-12T16:09:57Z")
Lyrically, I’d give it to Ray, I think. Both are lyricists of deep feeling and humanity, but Pete tends to hide behind “poetic” obscurity too much, while Ray really lays it all out in the open. In a way I see their output reflecting the reverse of **blondebear** take: yes, Pete looks within and Ray without, but Pete spins what he finds in his own soul into social commentaries and spiritual allegories, while Ray looks at the everyday world around him and finds his own soul there. Musically? Both brilliant. Points to the Kinks for doing the heavy metal riff thing first (Pete cheerfully admits to stealing it from them) and for an endless succession of gorgeous melodies; points to the Who for lofty ambition and symphonic grandeur. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/6 "2008-04-12T22:23:01Z")
Ray Davies. That was easy. Next? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/7 "2008-04-12T22:41:51Z")
I think it’s a draw. What I’d like to see is those two team up…can you imagine what that would’ve been like 40 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/8 "2008-04-12T22:46:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by lissener > > Ray Davies. > > That was easy. Next? Ok, Davies or McCartney? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/9 "2008-04-12T22:49:23Z")
The Kinks are possibly my favorite band, largely on the strength of Ray’s songwriting. I’d call him the greatest songwriter in mainstream rock. The Who, on the other hand, while I don’t dislike them by any means, are one of those bands that I “should” like but haven’t really gotten into, and my familiarity with their work doesn’t go beyond the hits and a couple of albums. So obviously, I’m going to have to go with Ray. Excellent analysis by **Biffy**. ---
**Author:** ![rikc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c57346/32.png) [@rikc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rikc)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/10 "2008-04-12T23:35:21Z")
Ray Davies in a second. I would probably put him over McCartney, too, honestly. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/11 "2008-04-13T00:00:32Z")
Can some of the Davies fans suggest some songs? I’ve heard almost every Who song. So, I know exactly what Pete Townsend is capable of. The Kinks? I mainly think of them with You Really Got Me, All the Day and All of the Night, Lola, Superman, On the Dial, Come Dancing, and the excellent Celluloid Heroes. ---
**Author:** ![rikc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c57346/32.png) [@rikc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rikc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/12 "2008-04-13T00:16:35Z")
[QUOTE=dalej42] Can some of the Davies fans suggest some songs? [/QUOTE] The Village Green Preservation Society is practically essential (though it took me longer to warm up to than I was led to believe it would), and Arthur is terribly underrated IMO. Johnny Thunder and The Last Of The Steam-Powered trains are my personal favorites, but I’m having a much tougher time picking a particular song to put on the line and say “HERE is the case for Ray Davies.” I’d just say spin the albums a few times, they’re very solid. Edit: Kinks fans might disagree with me, but I would personally recommend checking out Arthur first, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/13 "2008-04-13T00:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **dalej42** > > Can some of the Davies fans suggest some songs? Also, as I mentioned in the OP, \*Give the People What They Want \* has some fantastic songs. He somehow manages to make songs that include stories of spousal abuse, possible pedophilia, the Kennedy assassination, and a mass murderer into awesome tunes with his wry way of seeing things. Plus, he has the sense of humor to start out a song with the line: “I met a girl called Lola and I took her back to my place…” ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/14 "2008-04-13T01:20:22Z")
Townshend. I saw the Who in 1989 or so and I marvelled at how many of their songs were really anthemic in stature. Won’t Get Fooled Again See Me, Feel Me Baba O’Riley Love, Reign O’er Me I’m Free I don’t associate the Kinks with that depth of meaning, but I don’t know their work as well. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/15 "2008-04-13T02:13:40Z")
[QUOTE=Southern Yankee] Plus, he has the sense of humor to start out a song with the line:“I met a girl called Lola and I took her back to my place…” [/QUOTE] Pardon my nitpick, but the [original] opening is: _“I met her in a club down in old Soho, Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like Coca Cola…”_ [QUOTE=rikc] I’m having a much tougher time picking a particular song to put on the line and say “HERE is the case for Ray Davies.” [/QUOTE] Two words: _ **Waterloo Sunset** _. Tangent only semi-related to the OP: You have a much, much better chance of seeing Pete onstage with his brother than ever seeing Ray and Dave together again. (With luck, if the stars align, this may change…keep your fingers crossed!) ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/16 "2008-04-13T02:42:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **blondebear** > > Pardon my nitpick, but the [original] opening is: > “I met her in a club down in old Soho, > Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like Coca Cola…” I was referencing _Destroyer_ off of GTPWTW. My point was that we all know what _Lola_ was about, so here he is 12 years later opening a new song with that verse. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/17 "2008-04-13T02:51:32Z")
Oops, sorry. Pardon my lack of attention to the gist of your post. The thing is, so many people download songs and listen to them as background music, only half-listening to the lyrics… My guess is that you don’t fit into that category. Cheers. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/18 "2008-04-13T03:03:12Z")
Nothing to apologize about. I’m happy to see there are a few Kinks fans here. As to your point about Ray and Dave playing together again, I do hope it happens. I saw them in '85 or so and they were really good that night, but I was secretly hoping for an on-stage fistfight… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/19 "2008-04-13T04:14:08Z")
[QUOTE=Southern Yankee] As to your point about Ray and Dave playing together again, I do hope it happens. [/QUOTE] I’ve heard [rumors](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=504710) that all four of the original Kinks will play together again. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028/20 "2008-04-13T04:35:15Z")
[QUOTE=dalej42] Can some of the Davies fans suggest some songs? [/QUOTE] I second the song Waterloo Sunset, and the albums Village Green Preservation Society and Arthur. And if you like that, there’s a whole lot more to explore. (By the way, speaking of “Destroyer,” I prefer the live version from “The Road.”) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pete-townshend-v-ray-davies-whos-the-better-songwriter/445028.md?page=2)