# peter morris is a fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 21, 2003, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004 "2003-04-21T10:59:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/21 "2003-04-24T04:01:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by peter morris \* > \*\*Miller: > > Then check out James Randi’s essay here: > [http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/divining.htm](http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/divining.htm) > > here’s a quote from Randi: \<\\> > > Because I have seen so many similar errors in James Randi’s work I have no faith in anything he says, or in the validity of any test he sets. > > I’ll accept a cheque. \*\* You can lead a fuckwit to text but you cannot make him read. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/22 "2003-04-24T04:11:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by peter morris \* > \*\* > Then check out James Randi’s essay here: > [http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/divining.htm](http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/divining.htm) > > here’s a quote from Randi: \<\\> > > \*\* Can you _really_ not see how the above is _not_ the equivelant of: \<\\>? If so, then it is quite clear that you are in serious need of some formal education in english and reading comprehension. Until you get that, you are not a worthy debate opponent as you can not be trusted to interpret the written word as it is intended, and this, after all, is a written medium. Here are some other things you seem to be missing: > [@](#): > > \*\* > > - Randi’s claim about ideomotor action disproving dowsing. It’s a lie because dowsers themselves state they atre moving the stick. \*\* Randi does not claim that ideomotor motion _disproves_ dowsing. If you need help, please quote where he says this, and I’ll explain to you how you are misinterpreting. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > - Randi’s word games, where he claims that getting a subliminal impression from the local geography doesn’t count as dowsing, rather than admit this as a scientific explaination of how it works. \*\* Randi’s challenge is to provide proof of _paranormal_ activity/powers. If it is demonstrated that you subconsciously chose to waggle the dowsing stick in the area where all the trees and plants are growing because you happen to know that that is where you will find water, you have not shown a psychic or paranormal ability, but mearly a _normal_ one that many other people have. Just to make it nice and easy for you. _If there is a current scientific explanation for something, then it is not paranormal_. This is largely why we accept that aeroplanes fly due physics, not magic. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > - his ‘test’ for ability to find an underground river is to see whether they can find a four inch pipe instead. As several Skeptics have admitted, there is a big difference. \*\* Yes there is a big diference. Yet still the dowsers actually say, and demonstrate (to themselves), that they can detect water in pipes. Craaazy eh? You’d think that if they couldn’t do it, then they wouldn’t say they could. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > - his constant self-promotion, grandstanding and boasting. His tests are about making money for James Randi, not about any scientific endeavour. \*\* This is really another debate, but I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t do something for selfish means. Sure it makes money for Randi. It’s also an excellent opportunity for someone with a _genuine_ ability to make some money and to further general research into the paranormal. Someone who is reasearching in to cancer does so quite selfishly, even if it is just because giving knowledge to the world makes them _feel_ good, it is still selfish and everyone is guilty of it (and there’s nothing wrong with it either). > [@](#): > > \*\* > > - his claim that he will adapt the test to suit the testee, but in fact the subject must meet the demands of Randi. \*\* Please quote where this happens. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/23 "2003-04-24T04:37:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by peter morris \* > \*\*Just to summarize briefly : > > - Randi’s claim about ideomotor action disproving dowsing. It’s a lie because dowsers themselves state they atre moving the stick. \*\* Randi has never said that. If you think he has, cite please. But we have already asked you for a cite on this and you have never provided one. Please don’t bother referring to the Australian testing page again unless you are able to quote, sentence by sentence where he says this. Randi simply offers ideomotor action as a possible reason why people believe they can dowse. This has been explained to you over and over but you are too stupid to understand. > [@](#): > > - Randi’s word games, where he claims that getting a subliminal impression from the local geography doesn’t count as dowsing, rather than admit this as a scientific explaination of how it works. Randi has never said that he would offer a prize for someone able to pick where water might be by observing the landscape. If you think he has, cite please. But we have already asked you for a cite on this and you have never provided one. Please don’t bother referring to the Australian testing page again unless you are able to quote, sentence by sentence where he says this. We have asked you again and again why you think Randi would give a paranormal prize for a non-paranormal activity and you have never answered. Local geography is a scientific reason why dowsing under non-controlled conditions does work. That’s why he controls for it, when persons approach him seeking a paranormal prize. > [@](#): > > - Randi’s claim that underground rivers are ‘fictional’. They are real. Look up “notion” in a dictionary. Take a basic course in English sentence construction and comprehension. Do whatever. Don’t bother us with this crap again until you can explain why Randi said that “the underground river notion that dowsers maintain” was fiction and not simply that “underground rivers are fiction”. > [@](#): > > - his ‘test’ for ability to find an underground river is to see whether they can find a four inch pipe instead. As several Skeptics have admitted, there is a big difference. Your fuckwit-hood knows no bounds. You already admitted in the other thread that Randi didn’t say this, but here you are spewing forth this bullshit again. Truly, you are a Lekatt. > [@](#): > > - his constant self-promotion, grandstanding and boasting. His tests are about making money for James Randi, not about any scientific endeavour. None of this constitutes fraud. > [@](#): > > - his claim that he will adapt the test to suit the testee, but in fact the subject must meet the demands of Randi. Up to you to prove he will not adapt his tests to suit the testee. Something you are yet to do. And given that numerous testees sign documents specifically confirming they are happy with the tests, and are so happy with the tests that they are prepared (often on tv) to lay their reputation on the line on the basis of the tests, it is clear that they are truly happy, despite your desperate attempt to suggest that somehow testees are constrained to participate under threat of who knows the fuck what. But you still maintain this point. Dunderhead. > [@](#): > > - his claim that water can be found everywhere, but in fact in many places it amounts to a tiny trickle, less than would be considered a succesful dowse. So you agree that it can be found everywhere, then? But you say that dowsers can find more than is found everywhere. Better find a cite for that one then. > [@](#): > > I feel like I’m playing a game of “what have the Romans ever done for us” here. What makes that scene funny is that the group openly admit that the Romans have done much for them. Throwing mud is not an argument, no matter how much you throw. > [@](#): > > How many lies do I have to expose in order to prove him a liar? One would be a start. > [@](#): > > Far from it. I was pointing out that what I quoted was the most natural interpretation of his words. I stand behind it 100% No actually you were rather desperately backing and filling, and you were attempting to make out a very very strained arguement that you had interpreted Musicat’s words in a particular way based on a weak contextual point. And even if you are right about Musicat, that is irrelevant to the primary thrust of this OP, which is that you specifically confirmed that your views of Randi were based on your own experience and observations, until the heat came on and you were looking for a scapegoat. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/24 "2003-04-24T05:46:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by peter morris \* > \*\*Miller: > > Then check out James Randi’s essay here: > [http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/divining.htm](http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/divining.htm) > > here’s a quote from Randi: \<\\> > > Because I have seen so many similar errors in James Randi’s work I have no faith in anything he says, or in the validity of any test he sets. > > I’ll accept a cheque. \*\* Read it. You are wrong. Randi does not claim there is no such thing as an underground river, he says that underground rivers do not occur with the frequency maintained by most dowsers. Anyone with the slightest ability at reading comprehension should be able to see that. Some how, you can’t. Wonder why that is? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/25 "2003-04-24T16:40:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by peter morris \* > \*\* > Because I have seen so many similar errors in James Randi’s work I have no faith in anything he says, or in the validity of any test he sets. > \*\* If that was the best you can do, I seriously doubt you can find any such Randi-errors that you claim. You are a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/26 "2003-04-24T20:05:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Look up “notion” in a dictionary. Take a basic course in English sentence construction and comprehension. Do whatever. Don’t bother us with this crap again until you can explain why Randi said that “the underground river notion that dowsers maintain” was fiction and not simply that “underground rivers are fiction”. The meanuing is obvious and clear. The notion that there are ANY underground rivers is a fiction. Perhaps you would tell us what else it could possibly mean. > [@](#): > > Read it. You are wrong. Randi does not claim there is no such thing as an underground river, That is EXACTLY what he claims. nowhere doe he talk about the ‘frequency’ of under5ground rivers, he talks about th NOTION of underground rivers, period. He says the NOTION is a fiction. He is denying their existence. That is a fact. He is a liar. that is another fact. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/27 "2003-04-24T20:38:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Besides, the “underground river” notion _that dowsers maintain_ is sheer fiction, not supported at all by geological research. **versus** > [@](#): > > He says the NOTION is a fiction. He is denying their existence. That is a fact. The first is from Randi, the second from **peter morris**. You will note the clause in italics in Randi’s quote, which pretty much makes your complaint nonsense. He’s not saying anything about underground rivers, just the misguided notions that dowswers have about underground rivers. Thank you for playing, please try again. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/28 "2003-04-24T21:42:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Princhester_ > **peter morris is a fraud** I disagree. **peter morris** is a _moron._ He honestly believes this shit he’s posting. If he were misrepresenting himself, _then_ he’d be a fraud. But he’s not. He’s just a garden-variety dummy. ---
**Author:** ![Jayrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/29 "2003-04-24T22:00:09Z")
I am not the type of person to flame… but… I just read that whole goddam CCC thread so I feel like I earned it: **peter morris** , you are an absolute tinfoil-hat-wearing idiot. I’d like to add a profanity too: You are a fucking moron. Either that or you are a troll. Your arguments sound like they came from a fucking 12 year old. I’m utterly unimpressed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/30 "2003-04-24T22:08:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by peter morris \* > \*\*The meanuing is obvious and clear. The notion that there are ANY underground rivers is a fiction. > > Perhaps you would tell us what else it could possibly mean. > > That is EXACTLY what he claims. nowhere doe he talk about the ‘frequency’ of under5ground rivers, he talks about th NOTION of underground rivers, period. He says the NOTION is a fiction. He is denying their existence. That is a fact. > > He is a liar. that is another fact. \*\* No, that’s not what he says. He’s talking about the claim made by dowsers that there are underground rivers all over the place. Any competent geologist will tell you this is bullshit. Randi _does not say_ there is no such thing as an underground river, he says that the _notion put forward by dowsers_, that there are underground rivers all over the place, is not true. Read it again: there is no other possible interpretation to his words, no matter how much you might protest. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/31 "2003-04-24T23:13:19Z")
For those unclear on the difference between the notion of underground rivers and the notion of underground rivers put forward by dowsers, a little background: There are, of course, some underground rivers. These are usually in cave systems. Rivers carve caves. There are a lot of them, but only a fraction compared to overground water systems. Dowsers would have us believ that the world is criss-crossed with miles and miles of underground rivers. They flow everywhere, they defy gravity, they manage to avoid causing erosion. This defies logic, physics and geology. If a dowser actually managed to find water on your site, they’d likely claim it was from an underground river. If that were true, there’s a good chance that your sitting on your own private low-heat Centralia, PA. Your property will likely collapse at any minute if such a thing were true. Flowing water will cause massive erosion. How do you think those caves were formed? Fairies? Any water a dowser might find would be from the aquifer, an entirely different beast indeed. Therin lies the difference. Peter would have us beleive that Randi is dismissing the the existance of underground rivers. Nothing could be further from the truth, and Peter’s attempts to claim otherwise show the level of deception he is willing to sink to to attack Randi. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/32 "2003-04-25T00:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by peter morris \* > The meaning is obvious and clear. The notion that there are ANY underground rivers is a fiction. Your interpretation is so obvious and clear that you keep having to misquote what he said, leaving out crucial words, to arrive at it. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you would tell us what else it could possibly mean. Perhaps you can’t read. > [@](#): > > He is a liar. that is another fact. Keep shouting it. People as stupid as you may come along and actually believe it, though frankly I hate to insult my fellow dopers by suggesting that any of us (Lekatt excepted) are that stupid. Oh, and Cervaise, he is a fraud. It’s just that he’s a moron also. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/33 "2003-04-25T01:03:33Z")
WHHEEE!! We have a fun new freak! If we poke **peter morris** with a sharp stick, will he squeak? \ \ \ 😃 :wally ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/34 "2003-04-25T02:34:19Z")
Fair commment, Bosda! ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/35 "2003-04-25T12:24:16Z")
I don’t think it is clear what Randi meant. I assume he meant the ‘notion that dowsers have about rivers’ is false, simply because most people are aware that there are _some_ underground rivers, but it does look like it could mean ‘the notion _of_ underground rivers’ is false. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/36 "2003-04-25T12:39:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Princhester \* > \*\*Fair commment, Bosda! \*\* Are you asking me to be fairer, or do you think I was fair? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/37 "2003-04-25T22:32:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > \*\*I don’t think it is clear what Randi meant. I assume he meant the ‘notion that dowsers have about rivers’ is false, simply because most people are aware that there are _some_ underground rivers, but it does look like it could mean ‘the notion _of_ underground rivers’ is false. \*\* I think it’s pretty clear, but even if not, to fiercely defend the latter interpretation, with a total blindness to any other interpretation, and use that interpretation as the only basis (for which shitforbrains has been able to provide a cite) for calling someone out as a liar seems to show a quite pathological hatred. The latter, Bosda, the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/38 "2003-04-25T23:29:24Z")
Couldn’t find anything better to do with all those "m"s lying around on the floor **Princhester**? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/39 "2003-04-26T09:26:29Z")
Dammmmmmmmmmned keys stuck again! ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004/40 "2003-04-26T22:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > No, that’s not what he says. He’s talking about the claim made by dowsers that there are underground rivers all over the place. Any competent geologist will tell you this is bullshit. Randi does not say there is no such thing as an underground river, he says that the notion put forward by dowsers, that there are underground rivers all over the place, is not true. Read it again: there is no other possible interpretation to his words, no matter how much you might protest. Just for the sake of argument, lets just say that I believe that. Randi is STILL a liar. Dowsers DO NOT say that \<\< there are underground rivers all over the place\>\> Quite the opposite in fact. Dowsers say that underground rivers are RARE, and that it takes a dowser to find one. If there were \<\\> why would you need a dowser to find one? Here’s your homework : look up “dowsing” on google, and find me ONE example of a dowser who says that there are \<\\> You won’t find any. Yet, according to you, Randi claims that dowsers think there are \<\\> Randi’s claim is false. No matter how you twist Randi’s words, they still come out as a lie. Every interpretation, no matter how bizzare, (and yours is very strange indeed) is a lie. The man is a total fraud. It is beyond me why anyone is taken in by his crap. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-morris-is-a-fraud/170004.md?page=3)