# 'Peter Pan,' 'Lady and the Tramp,' and 12 More Kids' Classics Marred by Racism **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 5, 2014, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389 "2014-12-05T08:55:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/41 "2014-12-05T20:26:38Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I’d say that’s pretty damn racist. What? Only white people are important enough to be in your story? AHAHAHAHA! Oh, Drunky Smurf, I’m so glad you bother to share your cleverness with the class. Imagine the moments of hilarity we’d lose if you ever filtered yourself, asking, “Is this really clever enough to post?” before clicking “submit.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/42 "2014-12-05T20:55:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I dispute the claim that _Peter Pan_ depicts Native Americans. The Indians in _Peter Pan_, like the pirates (and fairies), are native to no real, geographical area on earth. Rather, they are native to the kind of fantastictal adventure stories that English children used to grow up reading. Right, they are _fantasy_ “indians”. It’s a British kids idea of Indians". The article gets several other things wrong: “Song of the South” is set in the post war South- no one is a slave. My friend Jim Korkis has written a interesting book on the subject. > **[Who's Afraid of the Song of the South? And Other Forbidden Disney Stories:...](https://www.amazon.com/Afraid-South-Forbidden-Disney-Stories/dp/0984341552)** > > Who's Afraid of the Song of the South? And Other Forbidden Disney Stories \[Korkis, Jim, Norman, Floyd, McLain, Bob\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Who's Afraid of the Song of the South? And Other Forbidden Disney Stories And come- on- a WWII Propaganda cartoon? A “kids classic”? Not even really racist, since it makes fun of all the Axis leaders. Hardly a “classic” since it can only be found on special collections. "_All This and Rabbit Stew"_ is also hard to find and hardly a “kids classic”. Same thing as the original _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_, you’d have to pay $50-500 to get a copy of that rare first edition. Pretty much that article is 90% bullshit. Other than Peter Pan, which does not portray real Native Americans, the rest are not generally available to kids today. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/43 "2014-12-05T20:58:22Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > On the topic of racism in Peter Pan, allow me to bring up the absolutely bonkers & utterly stupid decision to cast [Rooney Mara as Tiger Lily in next year’s _Pan._](http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/11/26/rooney-maras-tiger-lily-could-not-be-less-native-thats-problem-158028) Seriously, I’m not even NA but her casting is all kinds of offensive Hollywood whitewashing as far as I can tell. But it’s OK to have a black “Annie”?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/44 "2014-12-05T20:59:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Right, they are _fantasy_ “indians”. It’s a British kids idea of > Indians". In no way is that an excuse; in no way does that make the depiction less racist. Racist depictions of people are **by definition** incorrect. Having a depiction of Native Americans that reduces them to silly little savages who exist to serve the imaginative purposes of white children is not a good thing. It is a prime example of racist, dehumanizing portraits of other cultures. The British kids idea of Indians is a racist idea of Indians. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/45 "2014-12-05T21:16:58Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I dispute the claim that _Peter Pan_ depicts Native Americans. The Indians in _Peter Pan_, like the pirates (and fairies), are native to no real, geographical area on earth. Rather, they are native to the kind of fantastictal adventure stories that English children used to grow up reading. It seems a little specious to argue that stereotypes are okay because they’re stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/46 "2014-12-05T21:18:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But it’s OK to have a black “Annie”?:rolleyes: :rolleyes: back atcha. Tiger Lily’s character is **predicated** on her being Native American. Native Americans get hit twice by this casting decision: first, they’re stereotyped unacceptably; and second, scarce roles for native American actors are instead passed out to white people. These double whammy has been going on in Hollywood for generations, and it’s ugly. Nothing about Annie’s character is predicated on her being white. Nothing about her character is a stereotype of whiteness. And there’s no tradition in Hollywood of scarce roles for white girls, much less a tradition of scarce white girl roles being given instead to black actors. It’s cool how when you encounter racism against Native Americans you bend over backwards to look at historical context, but how you’re willing to ignore it completely in order to imply racism against white people. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/47 "2014-12-05T21:47:54Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > And in another 110 years, people will be alarmed at how Harry Potter depicted owls, or how we laughed at the stereotyped antics of Rosie, the Jetson’s robot maid. Or possibly they wil be laughing at how we were going overboard to blame older works for not lining up with early 21st-century standards while not noticing our own blindspots. Because magical animals and imaginary sentient appliances are exactly the same as people, yes, so the offensive portrayal of an ethnicity as say comic menials is no more problematic than showing a comic robot. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/48 "2014-12-05T21:54:00Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Because magical animals and imaginary sentient appliances are exactly the same as people, yes, so the offensive portrayal of an ethnicity as say comic menials is no more problematic than showing a comic robot. Just wait until after the inevitable robot uprising. You won’t be so dismissive of disrespectful portrayals then. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/49 "2014-12-05T22:10:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It seems a little specious to argue that stereotypes are okay because they’re stereotypes. Well, it’s a good thing I didn’t say that stereotypes are okay, then. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/50 "2014-12-05T22:11:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > :rolleyes: back atcha. Tiger Lily’s character is **predicated** on her being Native American. No, she’s a member of a fantasy “indian” tribe. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/51 "2014-12-05T22:39:32Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > I was thinking about this just yesterday! Specifically the cats and the racist portrayal. My conclusion: “Yeah, but those cats were freakin’ cool!” You’re right, they were jerks, and the portrayal is probably offensive, but they’re still the best part of the movie if you ask me. This opinion reminds me of another majorly racist Disney movie: _Dumbo_. I found the movie on the whole rather boring and sad, with one exception: the singing crows scene.\* Yeah, they were racist. But they were _extremely_ cool, and they were voiced by some brilliant professional singers. \*Oh, yeah, and the psychedelic pink elephants scene that immediately preceded it. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/52 "2014-12-05T23:01:43Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > It’s easy to say “Oh, racism is no big deal, it’s old, etc.” until you are the little Asian child watching it and you see those damn cats in Lady and the Tramp. “We are Siamese, if you please.” They were jerks, and most Asiatic characters were kind of depicted as jerks. I can’t even imagine being a black child and watching all of these movies and shows that depict black people as such. > > I’m not saying we shouldn’t show these movies…but they do require a touch of sensitivity. Plus, there is so much new stuff, that if I had kids, I might not bother pulling out Peter Pan or Lady and the Tramp. Modern Disney has much better characters and stronger female characters - hell I’d show a child of mine Mulan before I ever showed her Sleeping Beauty. Just because I enjoyed those movies as a child doesn’t mean I should keep passing them on. What, really? You looked at the cats and equated them to Asian children? They were jerks but they seemed to be pretty much depicted as cats, obviously cartoon cats but still…cats. Cats are assholes. I just watched it to see if something looked different since the last time I saw it but…nope. Of course it is impossible for me to watch it as an Asian child but I have to say, as a child I didn’t relate ANY of the animals’ parts to people. Those cats were the villains. Of course they were jerks. I would be more likely to think (and I do think) that the creator of this didn’t like cats than that he was trying to put forth a racial insult. (Also, crows are always the bad guy, and maybe it’s a reference to black people and maybe not, but IMO crows are even worse assholes than cats. There has to be a way to make a crow the bad guy without it being a racial insult.) I thought the Lady/Tramp reference was going to be the stereotype of Italians owning a restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/53 "2014-12-05T23:06:31Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > I was thinking about this just yesterday! Specifically the cats and the racist portrayal. My conclusion: “Yeah, but those cats were freakin’ cool!” You’re right, they were jerks, and the portrayal is probably offensive, but they’re still the best part of the movie if you ask me. The problem is mainly those bucktoothed faces. If they didn’t have that, they’d probably be cool. I don’t think they’re supposed to be jerks because they’re Siamese. They’re jerks because they’re cats. It was a stereotyped view of cats. (It’s a cool song) And this is in a movie where the heros are dogs, so naturally the villains are cats. Siamese cats have traditionally been seen as very elegant and proud. (Although they’re actually very affectionate and very talkative) (Siamese cats are pretty cool. Two of my cats are part Siamese. Loveable little snots) > [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > Well, I can definitely see someone being offended by the Siamese cats’ Engrish: > “Do you seeing that thing swimming round and round? > Maybe we can reaching in and make it drown > If we sneaking up upon it carefully > There will be a head for you, a tail for me.” Maybe it’s an early version of lolcat? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/54 "2014-12-05T23:15:32Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I dispute the claim that _Peter Pan_ depicts Native Americans. To clarify: my main objection was to the use of the term “Native Americans” to refer to characters who were not, in fact, natives of America (even though they are clearly based on stereotypes of Native Americans). It just seems linguistically wrong in much the same way that referring to the Star Trek character [Tuvok](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvok) as an “African-American Vulcan” seems wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/55 "2014-12-05T23:28:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But it’s OK to have a black “Annie”?:rolleyes: I think a black “Annie” is perfectly fine, but it does seem a little racist that, because “annie” is black, then the “Daddy” character also has to be black. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/56 "2014-12-05T23:39:57Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > That’s great and dandy…again, unless you are the small Native American child watching or reading it! Of course you will apply it to yourself. It’s not that easy for a child to understand, “That’s not really you, it’s some fictional race somewhere”. Imagine those legions of poor white kids who have grown up watching Homer Simpson, Barney, Mr Burns and thought to themselves…we are stupid drunk irresponsible evil. And how bout that damned Hansel and Gretl and how it makes all elderly German spinsters out to be witches and cannibals? It could be that you are being a bit too sensitive. BTW…Siamese refers to the breed of cat. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/57 "2014-12-05T23:49:21Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I don’t subscribe to the “well I can find one Asian who doesn’t find it offensive so it isn’t offensive” school of thought, but personally, I don’t have a problem with the Siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp. > To me, their antagonism and ‘evil-ness’ is a function of them being cats. When I was little I saw it the same way. Not that I think cats are evil, but on the dog v. cat thing, dog=good cat= evil is a pretty common thing. At the very least, cats being the natural antagonist to a dog isn’t earth shattering stuff. > > The stereotypes are of course present, but they don’t strike me as particularly pejorative. > > But again, just because I’m not offended doesn’t mean others aren’t or don’t have a right to be. I agree with this. And as someone who has owned Siamese cats they can be quite temperamental. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/58 "2014-12-05T23:49:59Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I was just looking at the live action version of Jungle Book that is coming up: > > “Neel Sethi as Mowgli,[17] while the film’s voice cast will include Bill Murray as Baloo,[18] Idris Elba cast as Shere Khan,[19] Ben Kingsley as Bagheera,[20] Christopher Walken as King Louie, Giancarlo Esposito as Akela,[21] Scarlett Johansson as Kaa and Lupita Nyong’o as Raksha.[22] Filming began on August 5, 2014.” > > I am impressed that they are using an Indian child for Mowgli, and a nice diverse cast. Christopher Walken as King Louie??? Wow that’s just…wow, I cannot wait to see what that sounds like! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/59 "2014-12-06T00:00:13Z")
I recently got into an argument with a white guy over the racist imagery in the Tom and Jerry cartoons. According to him, I was a silly little girl for being bothered by Mammy. I was supposed to laugh when the crap dice, switchblade, and fried chicken would fall out of her pockets, because these are just JOKES. He found them funny, so of course I had to find them funny too. And apparently I was a bad person for wanting these scenes removed so that future children could enjoy them without the same discomfort. I didn’t grow up reading Peter Pan. I can’t remember Lady and the Tramp. I do remember the crows in Dumbo, but I don’t think they made me uncomfortable as a kid. But I do remember feeling weird when I’d see the pickaninny stuff on Looney Tunes. Once someone points it out to you and explains the “joke”, it’s kind of hard to unsee it. I don’t blame anyone for wishing their children could enjoy the classics without feeling weird about their own identities. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/60 "2014-12-06T00:13:13Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I think a black “Annie” is perfectly fine, but it does seem a little racist that, because “annie” is black, then the “Daddy” character also has to be black. I don’t see how that follows - Annie is an orphan. Daddy Warbucks adopts her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389.md?page=4)