# 'Peter Pan,' 'Lady and the Tramp,' and 12 More Kids' Classics Marred by Racism **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 5, 2014, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389 "2014-12-05T08:55:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/81 "2014-12-06T19:38:50Z")
From _The Noble Red Man_, published in _Galaxy_, 1870 by Mark Twain : > [@](#): > > […]He is ignoble–base and treacherous, and hateful in every way. Not > even imminent death can startle him into a spasm of virtue. The > ruling trait of all savages is a greedy and consuming selfishness, > and in our Noble Red Man it is found in its amplest development. His > heart is a cesspool of falsehood, of treachery, and of low and > devilish instincts. With him, gratitude is an unknown emotion; and > when one does him a kindness, it is safest to keep the face toward > him, lest the reward be an arrow in the back. […] As the ellipses indicate, there is **much** more. Mark Twain is one of my favorite authors. But I’m not delusional about his profound bigotry and racism toward people of my ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/82 "2014-12-06T20:12:18Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Jerome was a damn sight less racist than Americans of his era, and many of this era. And that changes absolutely nothing about my point. It isn’t his relative racism or lack that impacted me. It was his racism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/83 "2014-12-06T20:28:34Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Actually the Great God Pan. Almost the entire opposite of Christ Him Crucified. Please carry on. Huh. Looking around, it looks as though you’re right–although I clearly remember a chapter in which Rat and Mole were relaxing by the riverbank and ruminating on God, and those ruminations were much more YHVH than they were goathooved rapist. I’ll see if i can dig up my copy and post an excerpt or two. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/84 "2014-12-06T22:05:41Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > From _The Noble Red Man_, published in _Galaxy_, 1870 by Mark Twain : > > As the ellipses indicate, there is **much** more. Mark Twain is one of my favorite authors. But I’m not delusional about his profound bigotry and racism toward people of my ancestry. And, he actually changed his views on native Americans later in life, remember he lived over 40 years after he wrote that. By the late 19th century he was strongly anti-Imperialist, and also wrote that he did not think white men were any better than those called savages (he mocked the idea that we called indigenous peoples savage when contrasting their behavior with our own.) ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/85 "2014-12-06T22:18:43Z")
That is correct and I thank you for pointing it out. To me, some things when done to such an extent as to make the phrase “piling it on” laughably inadequate, stand as a testament to the tenor of their times. Such is _The Noble Red Man_. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/86 "2014-12-06T22:53:13Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I don’t subscribe to the “well I can find one Asian who doesn’t find it offensive so it isn’t offensive” school of thought, but personally, I don’t have a problem with the Siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp. > To me, their antagonism and ‘evil-ness’ is a function of them being cats. Not just cats, but siamese cats. They’re a special kind of stuck up other cats could only hope to someday attain. They’re the cats of cats. I still love them, though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/87 "2014-12-06T23:30:22Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > … stand as a testament to the tenor of their times. … Yup. This is Twain in _Letters from Earth_: > [@](#): > > The inventor of their heaven empties into it all the nations of the earth, in one common jumble. All are on an equality absolute, no one of them ranking another; they have to be “brothers”; they have to mix together, pray together, harp together, hosannah together–whites, niggers, Jews, everybody–there’s no distinction. Here in the earth all nations hate each other, and every one of them hates the Jew. Yet every pious person adores that heaven and wants to get into it. Notable that Indians were not included in that mocking list. Everyone hates the Jew but the Indians _didn’t even make the list_. It really is very telling. To him, even him, as part of the society of the time, Indians were not part of human nations. The tenor of the times likely really did not include Twain having any real contact with Indians. Stereotypes are maintained by limited real contact offset by popular images of military men (who Twain admired) going off fighting “Indian Wars”. I’ll believe others who say that his views softened some but he was part of a time that his society condoned ethnic cleansing and genocide against Native peoples without (to the best of my knowledge anyway) any major outcry similar to the Abolitionist movement. Even his contempt for prejudice otherwise was not up to being self-aware of his own there. Not against that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/88 "2014-12-06T23:42:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Huh. Looking around, it looks as though you’re right–although I clearly remember a chapter in which Rat and Mole were relaxing by the riverbank and ruminating on God, and those ruminations were much more YHVH than they were goathooved rapist. I’ll see if i can dig up my copy and post an excerpt or two. I’m gonna backtrack even more–I can’t find any evidence at all of what I thought I remembered. My only defense is that I read it periodically to a two-year-old in the bathtub at the end of a long day; it wasn’t exactly the closest of readings I did. So, statement from before = retracted, and I appreciate the ignorance-fighting. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/89 "2014-12-07T01:50:37Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I’ll believe others who say that his views softened some but he was part of a time that his society condoned ethnic cleansing and genocide against Native peoples without (to the best of my knowledge anyway) any major outcry similar to the Abolitionist movement. Even his contempt for prejudice otherwise was not up to being self-aware of his own there. Not against that. Actually, the post-Civil War period saw both a stepped-up period of conflict with AmerIndians as well as a major change in policy towards them. Previous policies had emphasized displacement over assimilation, and this changed radically. (Although it definitely needs to be pointed out that assimilation absolutely happened all the time anyway.) It’s largely forgotten now, but President Grant forced this change to happen because he saw that the existing system was unacceptable. Some also confuse the initial change with some of the later corruption is fell into, but even that was a vast improvement. On the topic at hand, I think there’s a difference between _stereotypes_ and _racism_. The latter may include the former, but the former is going to be pretty much universal. Not all of us people really get the chance to see other cultures in detail, and even if we do we can’t possibly understand them all. So as a consequence we all have mental shorthands of what we know about them. Culture _matters_, in ways both subtle and major. People and especially children can only “get” the really visible differences and may not comprehend the meaning behind them. I’m still considering what that means in the practical sense. ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/90 "2014-12-07T02:13:04Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I think a black “Annie” is perfectly fine, but it does seem a little racist that, because “annie” is black, then the “Daddy” character also has to be black. We saw the 1997 _Annie_ touring group, where Nell Carter played Miss Hannigan. She was great, but it was jarring when her “brother”, played by a white actor, claimed to be Annie’s biological father (in this show, Annie was white). The audience had to work hard at being colorblind with that production, and it took us out of the story for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/91 "2014-12-07T03:02:28Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > What, really? You looked at the cats and equated them to Asian children? They were jerks but they seemed to be pretty much depicted as cats, obviously cartoon cats but still…cats. Cats are assholes. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > The problem is mainly those bucktoothed faces. If they didn’t have that, they’d probably be cool. I don’t think they’re supposed to be jerks because they’re Siamese. They’re jerks because they’re cats. It was a stereotyped view of cats. (It’s a cool song) And this is in a movie where the heros are dogs, so naturally the villains are cats. Siamese cats have traditionally been seen as very elegant and proud. (Although they’re actually very affectionate and very talkative) > > (Siamese cats are pretty cool. Two of my cats are part Siamese. Loveable little snots) > > Maybe it’s an early version of lolcat? Yeah, I took it as they’re stereotyping not just cats, but Siamese cats in particular. Call me a racist, but I believe that lots of cat and dog breeds have personality components, and long ago I did find that lots of Siamese cats are particularly catty little snots, loveable as they may be. (Later I came to know quite a few that didn’t fit the stereotypes at all, other than their screechy voices, so perhaps a bit of my perception was projection.) And we have a gray longhair that, if personality were the only clue, I’d swear was a Siamese. We also feed a black (my wife assures me that blacks are part Siamese, and if their voices are any clue, I believe it) who’s a cheerful little snugglebug despite being practically feral. Go figure. Yeah, I guess I’m a cat racist after all. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/92 "2014-12-07T03:23:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And that changes absolutely nothing about my point. It isn’t his relative racism or lack that impacted me. It was his racism. It wasn’t his racism. It was his language. I admit to a cognitive dissonance when I read threads like this. The words obviously mean something different to you than they do to me, which makes following the argument difficult. I don’t struggle to understand: rather I start from a completely different understanding. For example, the pre-occupation with racism here marks you all as racist (to my expatriate eyes). Out of all the topics in the world we could discuss, we discuss our relationship to race? You are watching a movie, and you are thinking about how stupid it is and uncomfortable it makes you feel (OK). And how you feel about that movie as a member of your race. And how other races would feel watching that movie. And what it says to your children about race. And … race race race race race race race. You filter everything through a perception of race? Anyway. I don’t think that Dumbo is marred by racism: I think it’s marred by a one-dimensional story line and ugly caricatures. I think the word means something different to me. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/93 "2014-12-07T03:28:27Z")
Zip a dee doo da… Zip a dee ay… Disney was pretty racist in 'bout every way! > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nothing about Annie’s character is predicated on her being white. Nothing about her character is a stereotype of whiteness. And there’s no tradition in Hollywood of scarce roles for white girls, much less a tradition of scarce white girl roles being given instead to black actors. Well, except for her giant afro of curly red hair. > [@Dung Beetle](#): > > Well, I can definitely see someone being offended by the Siamese cats’ Engrish. I believe they prefer to be called “conjoined cats”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/94 "2014-12-07T05:14:16Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > It wasn’t his racism. It was his language. The words we use do not just reveal how we think, they are how we think. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/95 "2014-12-07T12:10:14Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > For example, the pre-occupation with racism here marks you all as racist (to my expatriate eyes). In all the racist arguments out there to choose from, you go with this, the dumbest of a dumb lot? Okey dokey. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/96 "2014-12-07T13:57:32Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Actually, the post-Civil War period saw both a stepped-up period of conflict with AmerIndians as well as a major change in policy towards them. Previous policies had emphasized displacement over assimilation, and this changed radically. (Although it definitely needs to be pointed out that assimilation absolutely happened all the time anyway.) It’s largely forgotten now, but President Grant forced this change to happen because he saw that the existing system was unacceptable. … Thank you for that reduction of my ignorance. In that vein a quick search shows up [this _Harper’s Weekly_ cartoon](http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/harp/0212.html) illustrating the 1870 “reformer” perspective, such as it was. The modern commentary on the cartoon places the tenor of the times as this: > [@](#): > > By the 1870s, most Native Americans lived west of the Mississippi River, where they continued to clash with white settlers. During the 1870s and 1880s, a series of bloody wars was fought between the U.S. Army and various Native American tribes in the West. Some Americans called outright for the extermination of Native Americans. By 1890, most Native Americans had been “pacified” and placed on reservations. > > The reformers’ alternative to extermination, war, or reservations was assimilation of Native Americans into European-American culture. … > > … Reformers wanted Native Americans to become educated Christians who live with their families on small farms (private property), rather than as a tribe on common lands or reservations. Here, the traditional Native American way of life (as Nast perceives it)–represented by weapons and alcohol (“fire water”)–has been shelved (right-background) as a sign of peace. The new way of life for the Native American is symbolized (right-foreground) by agricultural implements, a book of ABCs, and a copy of Harper’s Weekly. The work ethic and Christianity are both referenced in the Biblical passage “By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou earn thy bread.” Writers out of history wrote within times and places and cannot be judged fairly without that context. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/97 "2014-12-07T16:38:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I recently got into an argument with a white guy over the racist imagery in the Tom and Jerry cartoons. According to him, I was a silly little girl for being bothered by Mammy. I was supposed to laugh when the crap dice, switchblade, and fried chicken would fall out of her pockets, because these are just JOKES. He found them funny, so of course I had to find them funny too. > > And apparently I was a bad person for wanting these scenes removed so that future children could enjoy them without the same discomfort. Wait did this actually happen? I was an avid T&J watcher as a kid in the 80 and I was pissed when they dubbed over Mammy’s voice with what sounded like a newscaster. To me it seemed racist for erasing Mammy’s identity. I do not remember the scene you describe, but that sounds both racist and more importantly stupid! Who the hell keeps fried chicken in their pocket? Also Mammy did not strike me as the switchblade carrying type. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/98 "2014-12-07T18:02:46Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Wait did this actually happen? I was an avid T&J watcher as a kid in the 80 and I was pissed when they dubbed over Mammy’s voice with what sounded like a newscaster. To me it seemed racist for erasing Mammy’s identity. How’s–what–how is that even…? Mammy is a made-up character, not a real person. She has no identity except that given to her by her creators. If the original character was a racist stereotype, then changing that character is a good thing. Reading up on [Mammy Two Shoes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammy_Two_Shoes), it looks like they decided to get rid of the stereotype by replacing her character with a white woman. Which is sort of a morally cowardly thing to do, and indicates that they couldn’t imagine a way to include a non-stereotyped black woman, but is still better than using a racist caricature in a children’s cartoon. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/99 "2014-12-07T18:05:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How’s–what–how is that even…? > > Mammy is a made-up character, not a real person. She has no identity except that given to her by her creators. If the original character was a racist stereotype, then changing that character is a good thing. > > Reading up on [Mammy Two Shoes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammy_Two_Shoes), it looks like they decided to get rid of the stereotype by replacing her character with a white woman. Which is sort of a morally cowardly thing to do, and indicates that they couldn’t imagine a way to include a non-stereotyped black woman, but is still better than using a racist caricature in a children’s cartoon. I was a kid so I didn’t understand the history of the mammy stereotype, I just saw her a black woman with a accent. To kid me it seemed like they were trying to erase a black character, but I suspect the toons were already edited. I guess I saw it like if in the future people decide Apu on the Simpsons was racist, so they redub him with a neutral accept or lighten his skin tone or something. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389/100 "2014-12-07T18:12:02Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Oh, of course. You’re right. She has to be adopted by someone of the same race. They tried it the other way on Diff’rent Strokes and it turned out badly for all involved except for the houseeper. Just saying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peter-pan-lady-and-the-tramp-and-12-more-kids-classics-marred-by-racism/706389.md?page=6)