# Petraeus' approach to counterinsurgency is a cure worse than the disease **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593 "2007-09-09T18:52:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/41 "2007-09-11T18:37:30Z")
BTW, I see that he ( **xt** ) has now descended yet another step into the Bush Totalitarism System Of Democracy®, where if you disagree with his edicts you become, by default, an “anti-American.” Some ‘debating tactic.’ Not enough rolleyes left to respond with. My opposition to the current invasion blames both those directly responsible for it and those that continue to support it – and had he bothered to click on my cite, he would have found that there’s scant little support for the ongoing Iraq clusterfuck amongst the MAJORITY of Americans. Guess all of them are also “anti-Americans.” What a crock of shit. > [@](#): > > \*\*For a full year now at least, [one poll after the next](http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/04/02/iraq_polling/) has proven exactly the opposite to be true: namely, the overwhelming majority of Americans, not merely the radical unserious filthy leftist Move-On/Kos hippies, want a mandatory timetable for withdrawal. > > [The new poll from the NYT just this morning](http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/09102007_pollresults.pdf) (.pdf) is just the latest example, demonstrating that Americans overwhelmingly (57-38%) believe “the United States should set a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq sometime in 2008.”\*\* ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/42 "2007-09-11T18:36:27Z")
BTW, I see that he ( **xt** ) has now descended yet another step into the Bush Totalitarism System Of Democracy®, where if you disagree with his edicts you become, by default, an “anti-American.” Some ‘debating tactic.’ Not enough rolleyes left to respond with. My opposition to the current invasion blames both those directly responsible for it and those that continue to support it – and had he bothered to click on my cite, he would have found that there’s scant little support for the ongoing Iraq clusterfuck amaongst the MAJORITY of Americans. Guess all of them are also “anti-Americans.” What a crock of shit. > [@](#): > > \*\*For a full year now at least, [one poll after the next](http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/04/02/iraq_polling/) has proven exactly the opposite to be true: namely, the overwhelming majority of Americans, not merely the radical unserious filthy leftist Move-On/Kos hippies, want a mandatory timetable for withdrawal. > > [The new poll from the NYT just this morning](http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/09102007_pollresults.pdf) (.pdf) is just the latest example, demonstrating that Americans overwhelmingly (57-38%) believe “the United States should set a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq sometime in 2008.”\*\* ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/43 "2007-09-11T18:52:23Z")
To be strictly fair, **Red** , you opened yourself to that, he has the out of claiming he is referring only to you, and you do refer to “Americans” in the accusative tense, i.e., “you Americans” this, and “you Americans” that. I don’t recall him directly impugning the patriotism of we lefties as such, and assure you that he wouldn’t get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/44 "2007-09-11T18:57:28Z")
Nonetheless, I have to wonder about all this “well, we were wrong before, but now we’ve got it right, so things are so much better” kind of talk. We are given to understand that the Good General is the authority on all of this stuff, and has been for time immemorial. So where was he hiding as GeeDubya used and chucked out so many of his predecessors? And why would we imagine that such poor judgement is suddenly rendered moot? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/45 "2007-09-11T19:16:21Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Then why are they happening nevertheless? [/QUOTE] Which one of these things happened since Petraeus took over? El Salvador in the 1980s the recent exposure of abuses at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan’s Bagram facility and Guantánamo ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/46 "2007-09-11T19:23:43Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Nonetheless, I have to wonder about all this “well, we were wrong before, but now we’ve got it right, so things are so much better” kind of talk. [/quote] Things are better (or less bad) with someone competent in charge. Better ≠ good - sometimes it just means not as horrible. [QUOTE=elucidator] We are given to understand that the Good General is the authority on all of this stuff, and has been for time immemorial. So where was he hiding as GeeDubya used and chucked out so many of his predecessors? [/quote] IF you care to look the areas under his command were the ones that were doing better than their counterparts (while he was in charge of them). That’s why I started to like him way back in 2003 when no one else had even heard of him. this is all I could find from me on _this_ board: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5288834&postcount=10](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5288834&postcount=10) from 2004 [QUOTE=elucidator] And why would we imagine that such poor judgement is suddenly rendered moot? [/QUOTE] I’m certain you don’t think I think any such thing about the Bush Admin et al ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/47 "2007-09-11T19:25:44Z")
**Pat** , I regard you with cordial respect, as I’m sure you know, but haven’t the foggiest as to what you’re on about. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/48 "2007-09-11T19:26:54Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Then why are they happening nevertheless? [/QUOTE] Further, why is petraeus being held responsible for Afghanistan? That’s not his area. Why is petraeus being held responsible for Gitmo? That’s not his area. In what way does it make sense to hold Petraeus accountable for thing that occurred before his watch in areas that were not and still are not his to control? That is a serious question. Please answer that if you can. Next the rhetorical one: Why is Hayden trying to conflate Petraeus with these things? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/49 "2007-09-11T19:30:32Z")
**Pat** , if we chuck Mr Hayden’s opinion right out the window, will this appease? If he is full of beans, so what? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/50 "2007-09-11T19:36:18Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] **Pat** , if we chuck Mr Hayden’s opinion right out the window, will this appease? If he is full of beans, so what? [/QUOTE] Then we need a new thread. I think things in Iraq are a disastrous mess. I don’t hold out much hope for things to be resolved in a pleasant manner. However, given the dire circumstances, it seems reasonable to check and see if an ounce of prevention applied to the patient in the botched surgery can save us a pound of cure when it comes to keeping it from coming to life as a brain-eating zombie. It may well be too little to late. But I don’t think that throwing in the towel is really saving American blood or treasure - it only delays the expense. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/51 "2007-09-11T19:43:53Z")
We are flushing our blood and treasure down the toilet even as we speak, **Pat**. You posit a hypothetical disaster in comparison to a present one. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/52 "2007-09-11T19:56:25Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] BTW, I see that he (xt) has now descended yet another step into the Bush Totalitarism System Of Democracy®, where if you disagree with his edicts you become, by default, an “anti-American.” [/QUOTE] Do you know what the term ‘strawman’ means Red? Let me break it down for you…I’m not calling anyone who disagrees with me ‘anti-American’…I’m calling YOU ‘anti-American’. There is a difference, ehe? [QUOTE=RedFury] Some ‘debating tactic.’ Not enough rolleyes left to respond with. [/QUOTE] Well, rolleyes through ignorance and all that. Its not MY fault you can’t wrap your mind around what I’m saying. [QUOTE=elucidator] I don’t recall him directly impugning the patriotism of we lefties as such, and assure you that he wouldn’t get away with it. [/QUOTE] I would challenge Red to find a post of mine where I called someone who I disagree with ‘anti-American’. I usually reserve that term for people who are, you know, ACTUALLY ‘anti-American’. People who I just disagree with? Never. Its completely against my own political philosophy. I think that structured disagreement with the govenment is the height of patriotism. I consider YOU, 'luci, a patriot…for all that I generally disagree with you on the color of the sky. [QUOTE=PatriotX] I think things in Iraq are a disastrous mess. I don’t hold out much hope for things to be resolved in a pleasant manner. However, given the dire circumstances, it seems reasonable to check and see if an ounce of prevention applied to the patient in the botched surgery can save us a pound of cure when it comes to keeping it from coming to life as a brain-eating zombie. [/QUOTE] Exactly. I, too, am not holding out much hope. However, I think that we would be grossly wrong not to pursue every option before taking Red’s advice and just giving up and going home…and leaving the Iraqi’s to hold the bag and clean up the mess. I also agree that while we are spending our blood and treasure now on this stupid adventure there is no guarentee that if we bolt we won’t be spending it again in a few years or a decade or so…the mess is likely to not just go away because we tucked tail and rolled out. -XT ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/53 "2007-09-11T19:56:38Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] We are flushing our blood and treasure down the toilet even as we speak, **Pat**. You posit a hypothetical disaster in comparison to a present one. [/QUOTE] Nothing in Iraq is so bad that it cant get worse. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/54 "2007-09-11T20:12:41Z")
I have little doubt that it will. I simply don’t want our people there when it happens. Perhaps a sacrifice is needful, if such sacrifice is effective to an end. I see no reason to believe that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/55 "2007-09-11T20:20:00Z")
Problem is, lacking a time machine, its hard to say. Once we leave, well…then thats pretty much it. Our options at that point become much more limited. It will be too late to realize that we made a mistake taking the props out if Iraq goes completely tits up…if the entire region becomes embroiled in an all out civil war. Ultimately that may be the only option for the US…to get out of dodge. In fact, a few months ago I thought it WAS the only option, and the sooner the better. I think this is pretty much the last gasp…the last try to do SOMETHING, to find some stability if it can be found. Its curious that when the administration finally (after years of fucking up) gets off its collective fat ass and DOES try something different they are getting pinged on it the same why they did for the whole ‘stay the course’ bullshit. -XT ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/56 "2007-09-12T00:24:49Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Its curious that when the administration finally (after years of fucking up) gets off its collective fat ass and DOES try something different they are getting pinged on it the same why they did for the whole ‘stay the course’ bullshit. [/QUOTE] They’re getting pinged precisely _because_ they spent so long bullshitting us. They have obliterated their credibility with anyone not drowning in the Kool-Aid. Why should any thinking person buy the current line of merchandise, when so far they’ve sold us groves’ worth of lemons? One could also make the argument that this surge is merely “stay the course” with a new coat of paint. As others have cited, Petraeus has claimed in previous years to see significant progress, yet here we are. Whatever gains are being made militarily are worthless if the government we’re propping up is incapable of running the place without us and shows no credible signs of trying to get there. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/57 "2007-09-12T00:33:22Z")
The alleged pacification of Anbar deserves a little thought - it’s come by way of arming the Sunni warlords there while giving them the idea that they’ll be in control of the province once we leave - and that means the Baghdad Green Zone Shiites won’t be. The success Petraeus claims is the result of his \*advancing \* the three-state ethnic partition of Mesopotamia (I’ll call it that; there obviously never really was an Iraq), something the people there have been doing by themselves and can no longer be stopped anyway. But he and Crocker claim it as a success in stabilizing and preserving the _nation_, something the Baghdad “government” is not interesting in doing anyway? What is so damned hard about admitting that our strategy-du-six-months is to facilitate partition, not unification? It’s all that’s left, anyway. Let’s quit pretending and get on with it. At least look back six months ago, and remember Petraeus correctly telling us that this war cannot be “won” militarily but only politically, that the escalation was intended to pacify Baghdad and not Anbar, that the purpose was to let a unification government take hold, that that isn’t ever going to happen, and that the escalation is therefore a failure. Not a tactical failure, but a strategic one, and that’s worse. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/58 "2007-09-12T00:41:50Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] To be strictly fair, **Red** , you opened yourself to that, he has the out of claiming he is referring only to you, and you do refer to “Americans” in the accusative tense, i.e., “you Americans” this, and “you Americans” that. I don’t recall him directly impugning the patriotism of we lefties as such, and assure you that he wouldn’t get away with it. [/QUOTE] Maybe, maybe not, **'luc**. Guess it’s how any said poster wants to take it. I mean, for Og’s sake, I’ve got what? 3500 posts or so? And I think anyone that’s bothered paying attention to them from the start pretty much knows by now that when I refer to “Americans doing this or that” it’s pretty much obvious by default that I am arguing (as I have been from day one here) against the pro-war crowd. In fact, there are also plenty of posts of mine actually \*\*praising \*\* AMERICANS such as yourself and **BG** , for having the balls and moral fortitude to stand-up to The Bullies In Charge. Of course, **xt** , would never take those into account, what with his hard-on against all and everything Spanish. Fuck! Talk about being “anti” the guy’s actually rabid in his irrational hatred for my nation. _:::shrug:::_ No pasarán! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/59 "2007-09-12T00:58:46Z")
For those who still care about truth: [**A disgraceful and cynical surge of self-interest**](http://comment.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/article2950322.ece) > [@](#): > > \*\*The surge was never truly about stabilising Iraq. The US had already lost the ability to control events on the ground when the troops began to pour in earlier this year. Its primary purpose was to stave off demands from Democrats and some Republicans for a timetable for a US troop withdrawal. This is cynical and disgraceful. But what else can we expect from a military adventure that was formed in a spirit of hubris and carried out in an atmosphere of crashing incompetence and reckless arrogance? The US-led occupation of Iraq is unravelling in the same morally compromised manner in which it began. \*\* Those Brits. Anti-Americans all of them I tell you! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593/60 "2007-09-12T01:14:43Z")
More homework! [**The General as Salesman**](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20712196/site/newsweek/) > [@](#): > > Not surprisingly, Petraeus performed smoothly in his testimony to Congress. **But an internal Pentagon report is expected to ‘differ substantially’ from his recommendations on withdrawal from Iraq, NEWSWEEK has learned.** Interesting tidbits leaked from that well known anti-American institution, a.k.a., The Pentagon, that differ quite a ways with John Wayne’s “smooth testimony” to Congress. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petraeus-approach-to-counterinsurgency-is-a-cure-worse-than-the-disease/418593.md?page=4)