# Petty rants against well liked movies **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 5, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550 "2009-02-05T11:16:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/61 "2009-02-09T22:59:55Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > You know, a _real_ anti-Semite is going to **hate** Schindler’s List, because some Jews live. If you’re serious here–although your tone is dismissive and sarcastic, so I suspect not–but if you are, I should point out that the reason \*SL \*is a denier’s Holocaust movie is precisely \*because \*“some Jews live.” The movie minimizes the Holocaust, and reduces it to about the level of “Well THAT’S not so bad” that deniers attempt to reduce the Holocaust to. But again, I’m sure you got that and were just being sarcastic. The real tragedy of \*SL \*is that it’s simply the horrific context of his actions that make Schindler seem heroic, when he was only heroic by default: he was merely decent. But in a vacuum of decency, one man’s simple, everyday decency \*plays \*like heroism. The most important part of the story of Oskar Schindler is NOT what he did, but the fact that no one else was doing it. That’s the horror of his story, and Spielberg relegates it to the background; uses it to deify Schindler, rather than directly condemning it as the real point of the story. YMMV–probably does, in fact; I’m aware of how critic-proof this movie is. I don’t expect to \*convince \*anyone to agree with me; I’m just trying to explain my own reaction to this movie. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/62 "2009-02-09T23:00:26Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Shrek > Moral: You shouldn’t make fun at someone for being ugly. Making fun at someone for being short, however, is encouraged. ARRRG. I hated this show HATED! For a show that was sooooooo supposed to be about getting past superficalness and look at the beauty inside…they make short jokes. I’ve given up even bringing up this complaint when Shrek comes up and people are singing its praises. They just look at you and dismiss your opinion. Sort of like - well of course short people should be made fun of… ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/63 "2009-02-09T23:07:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No. You, as a non-Jew, cannot call a Jew an antisemite, just as I, a straight man, cannot call a gay man a homophobe. Not if I don’t want to offend gay people. That’s ridiculous. I can analyze Spielberg as an artist, but only if I agree that his religion is off-limits? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. > [@Alessan](#): > > SPR never pretended to be an anti-war movie, and I’m surprised that anyone would see it as one. Then be surprised. Search this forum for evidence that most people call it an anti-war film. Let alone the anecdotal conversations I’ve had with dozens of people IRL who believe this. > [@Alessan](#): > > You seem to think that anti-war films are the only legitimate type of war films. I disagree. War is a broad canvass that can take an infinite amount of paintings. You’ve obviously never read any of my other posts in this forum. You jump to an extreme misconception based on the discussion of only one movie. > [@Alessan](#): > > I think you enter his movies with certain preconceptions about what they are supposed to be about, preconceptions that have nothing to do with reality. Anymore, you’re probably right. But those preconceptions–my conception of Spielberg as an artist–were formed by watching _Schindler’s List, Amistad, Saving Private Ryan_–his “serious” films–without such preconceptions, and only forming such conclusions as a result of analyzing my reaction to these moves. > [@Alessan](#): > > Spielberg isn’t perfect. He doesn’t always pick the best scripts, and his casting is sometimes suspect. As for the Christ thing - the man’s American. It’s not his fault he grew up in a certain culture. I’m willing to give him a pass on that. I’m not say it’s his “fault,” and of course it’s because he’s grown up in a culture inundated with such images. I just mention it as further evidence of his artistic unawareness, to make up a word I think. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/64 "2009-02-09T23:09:36Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > ARRRG. > > I hated this show HATED! > > For a show that was sooooooo supposed to be about getting past superficalness and look at the beauty inside…they make short jokes. > > I’ve given up even bringing up this complaint when Shrek comes up and people are singing its praises. They just look at you and dismiss your opinion. Sort of like - well of course short people should be made fun of… What bugged me most about Shrek is that, for all it’s about the insignificance of exterior appearances, the ugly guy still didn’t get a pretty girl: she had to be uglied down to his level before they could be together. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/65 "2009-02-09T23:14:14Z")
**Back To The Future** It doesn’t seem to bother Marty much that his whole existence has been altered upon returning to 1985. Fine, he was somewhat less satisfied in his previous reality but it was HIS damn it! ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/66 "2009-02-09T23:16:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No. You, as a non-Jew, cannot call a Jew an antisemite, just as I, a straight man, cannot call a gay man a homophobe. Not if I don’t want to offend gay people. Now that’s rich. Isn’t the common stereotype of the homophobe that he’s a closeted homosexual? Or I guess it’s simply not possible to describe Roy Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover as “homophobes”, regardless of how many people they attacked on the basis of alleged homosexuality. Otherwise, heavens to Betsy, those fragile gay egos will be all a flutter as you’ve attacked one of their own. Do I have your world view down about right, there? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/67 "2009-02-09T23:41:24Z")
Not that I really wanna try and throw my hat into this Spielberg argument I do wanna mention that it’s interesting to hear the argument that Spielberg made the movie as a “Self hating” Jew, when he is just re-hashing a true story. If the story was made up (and/or written and chosen by him) than that might make some sense. But overall I don’t think you can analyze his views on his own Jewishness and any love or hate he might have therein on a story that is true. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/68 "2009-02-09T23:46:47Z")
No, **Lissener**. It’s up to \*us \*to decide whether one of ours is an anti-semite. You mind your own business. > [@lissener](#): > > The real tragedy of \*SL \*is that it’s simply the horrific context of his actions that make Schindler seem heroic, when he was only heroic by default: he was merely decent. But in a vacuum of decency, one man’s simple, everyday decency \*plays \*like heroism. The most important part of the story of Oskar Schindler is NOT what he did, but the fact that no one else was doing it. That’s the horror of his story, and Spielberg relegates it to the background; uses it to deify Schindler, rather than directly condemning it as the real point of the story. In oyther words, he made the movie he wanted to make instead of the movie you think he should have made. Any point of view other than yours is wrong (why am I not surprised?). Gotcha. As I said above, to a Jew, the survivors’ tales are the whole point of a Holocaust story. We know how horrible it was. What we need to see is how we came through it. You seem unable to understand this. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/69 "2009-02-09T23:47:19Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > American Beauty > Movies, now with 100% stereotypes instead of characters. The materialistic real estaste salesman, the homophobic marine guy who is actually gay, etc. The worst, though, have got to be the full-of-themselves “deep” teenage couple. Actual quote: “Sometimes there’s so much beauty in the world I feel like I can’t take it.” It always pissed me off that Lester got mad at his wife for worrying about getting, (was it champagne?), on her couch. “IT’S JUST A COUCH!” he argued. This is mere minutes after learning that he had just bought a 1970 Pontiac Firebird. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/70 "2009-02-10T00:03:54Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] No, Lissener. It’s up to us to decide whether one of ours is an anti-semite. You mind your own business. [/QUOTE] Thanks, Alessan, for making it so clear how pointless it is to waste my time with you any further. [QUOTE=Alessan] In oyther words, he made the movie he wanted to make instead of the movie you think he should have made. Any point of view other than yours is wrong (why am I not surprised?). Gotcha. [/QUOTE] Thanks, Alessan, for making it so clear how pointless it is to waste my time with you any further. [QUOTE=Alessan] As I said above, to a Jew, the survivors’ tales are the whole point of a Holocaust story. We know how horrible it was. What we need to see is how we came through it. You seem unable to understand this. [/QUOTE] Thanks, Alessan, for making it so clear how pointless it is to waste my time with you any further. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/71 "2009-02-10T00:11:57Z")
When I saw it a few years ago, I thought that \*\*Thelma & Louise \*\*was going to have “feminist” undertones. I remember I really didn’t feel like seeing it at the time because I had just watched a bunch of movies and a few TV shows that, (I felt), had been quite harsh on men. My girlfriend at the time insisted that I watch it. At the end of the movie I was stunned. I hated it, and thought it was indeed sexist… towards women. It was just one irrational decision after another. I explained to my girlfriend in detail why I felt this way, and she was pissed that I “ruined her favorite movie”, because she understood and agreed with my argument. I don’t know what the message was supposed to be, so I’m not sure this fits in the thread ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/72 "2009-02-10T00:17:26Z")
I feel a bit odd learning this late in life that the Holocaust is an exclusively Jewish story and none but Jews have the right to comment on it. I kinda thought it was a story that one could approach from the standpoint of, I dunno, general humanity perhaps. And you [Roma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porajmos), [Jehovah’s Witnesses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_triangle), [homosexuals](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_triangle) and [social deviants](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangle_(badge)), y’all be quiet and mind your own business, y’hear? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/73 "2009-02-10T00:24:01Z")
\*\*Lissener \*\*- well, that’s a relief. Listening to you is hardly my idea of fun, either. \*\*Koxinga \*\*- My point was that Spielbergs’ is a legitimate point of view, not that it is the sole legitimate point of view. There are lots of stories that can be told about the Holocaust. SL is merely one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/74 "2009-02-10T00:35:49Z")
Is there some kind of rule that Jewish filmmakers can’t include Christ figures in their films? Or only a certain number? Because Christ like figures seem like they’re just a part of literary/cinematic history and culture. Including one doesn’t mean that you endorse Jesus, but rather that the idea of the misunderstood but ultimately good innocent who sacrifices himself for a humanity that doesn’t grok him is just a big part of our books and movies. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/75 "2009-02-10T00:41:05Z")
Star Wars: A New Hope Blowing up a planet apparently is about as easy as turning on the lights. Also, nobody really notices since there are a lot of planets anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/76 "2009-02-10T00:56:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No, **Lissener**. It’s up to \*us \*to decide whether one of ours is an anti-semite. You mind your own business. I’m not Jewish, but I once saw a documentary about a young Jewish man who changed his name and joined a neo-Nazi group. They showed an interview with him in an SS uniform, snapping off Heil Hitlers, and parroting the racial philosophies of National Socialism. Can I call that guy an anti-Semite? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/77 "2009-02-10T00:58:57Z")
[QUOTE=Freudian Slit] Is there some kind of rule that Jewish filmmakers can’t include Christ figures in their films? Or only a certain number? Because Christ like figures seem like they’re just a part of literary/cinematic history and culture. Including one doesn’t mean that you endorse Jesus, but rather that the idea of the misunderstood but ultimately good innocent who sacrifices himself for a humanity that doesn’t grok him is just a big part of our books and movies. [/QUOTE] I agree. I just find it odd–and perhaps revealing–that **ALL** of Spielberg’s serious films are Christ stories. And it shows up in his less serious films too (cf. _ET_). ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/78 "2009-02-10T01:03:05Z")
**Jurassic Park:** Dennis Nedry closed the Main gate. How did the T-Rex get to the visitor center, let alone inside, and how did no one hear it coming? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/79 "2009-02-10T02:25:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > …In oyther words… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/80 "2009-02-10T02:37:09Z")
a scene near the end of the original **Invasion of the Body Snatchers** has always bugged me. Kevin McCarthy’s character leaves Dana Wynter’s character to investigate the sound of human singing. He cautions her not to fall asleep. When he finds (to his horror) that it’s just a radio, and that nearby “converted” people are loading more of the pods into trucks to ship to the rest of the country, he hurries back to her. As he takes her head in his hands, he realizes that she fell asleep, and she’s now “one of them.” But, wait – you don’t turn into a Pod Person just by falling asleep – you have to fall asleep near a Pod that has copied you, as was shown earlier in the film – more than once. There wasn’t time for a Pod to have grown while he was away (even assuming that one was close by). So she shouldn’t have changed. I’m sure they did this for the SHOCK value, but it’s a pretty serious inconsistency in the story. It jerks me out of the movie every time I see it, and I feel betrayed – _Hey! You changed the Rules on me! That’s not Fair!_ When they remade the film for the first time, in 1978, they avoided this inconsistency, but they introduced another (and Mad magazine pointed it out in their parody of it). The initial plants in that film fall to Earth as light, airy puffballs, like milkweed seeds, and so end up undetected in flower pots and gardens. But later on in the film, the plants have to use big, clumsy pods instead. Howcum? I understand that they couldn’t show those ungainly, non-aerodynamic pods falling from the sky (SPLAT!). Even Donald Sutherland would notice that. But, again, it’s a gross inconsistentcy. You can handwave all you want, but it sits in the back of your mind like a toothache as you watch the rest of the film. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550.md?page=5)