# Petty rants against well liked movies **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 5, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550 "2009-02-05T11:16:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/81 "2009-02-10T03:19:43Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > The real tragedy of \*SL \*is that it’s simply the horrific context of his actions that make Schindler seem heroic, when he was only heroic by default: he was merely decent. But in a vacuum of decency, one man’s simple, everyday decency \*plays \*like heroism. The most important part of the story of Oskar Schindler is NOT what he did, but the fact that no one else was doing it. That’s the horror of his story, and Spielberg relegates it to the background; uses it to deify Schindler, rather than directly condemning it as the real point of the story. I agree with you on this . . . but only a moron would conclude from SL that the Holocaust wasn’t so bad because some survived. We already knew there were survivors, but many people didn’t know the story of those who made their survival possible. Even (or especially) if Schindler had been the only one . . . and he wasn’t . . . the story needed to be told. The audience of the movie is not those who minimize the Holocaust; the audience is those who need to know that someone did what he could to help others survive . . . even if his heroism was mere decency. But perhaps we are wrong . . . perhaps in a vacuum of decency, when actual heroism is impossible, everyday decency actually \*is \*heroism. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/82 "2009-02-10T03:25:49Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > **Jurassic Park:** > Dennis Nedry closed the Main gate. How did the T-Rex get to the visitor center, let alone inside, and how did no one hear it coming? Because \*Jurassic Park \*is, after all, one of Spielberg’s Christ stories. And the damn t-rex could walk on water. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jester/32/8223_2.png) [@Jester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jester)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/83 "2009-02-10T03:31:55Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Because \*Jurassic Park \*is, after all, one of Spielberg’s Christ stories. And the damn t-rex could walk on water. :rolleyes: I thought he just jumped, what with all that tricky frog DNA. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/84 "2009-02-10T03:47:28Z")
**The Lost World: Jurassic Park** Vince Vaughn’s character was an moron. He got people killed by bringing the hurt baby T-Rex with him, and taking the bullets out of gun of the man who was hunting for T-Rex. Yet his character’s presented as heroic. Love how the piping in one of the buildings were arranged ‘just so’ for Malcolm’s kid to show off her gymnastic skills. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/85 "2009-02-10T03:53:32Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I agree. > > I just find it odd–and perhaps revealing–that **ALL** of Spielberg’s serious films are Christ stories. And it shows up in his less serious films too (cf. _ET_). The Color Purple? Schindler’s List? Is Oskar Schindler meant to be Christ like? Jaws? Hook? (All right. Dustin Hoffman makes a damned find Christ character.) Catch Me If You Can? The only one that really stands out for me is E.T. [Simpsons]I remember another gentle visitor from the heavens. He came in peace, and then died, only to come back to life. And his name was… E.T., the extraterrestrial. I love that little guy.[/Simpsons] ETA: > [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > **The Lost World: Jurassic Park** > > Vince Vaughn’s character was an moron. He got people killed by bringing the hurt baby T-Rex with him, and taking the bullets out of gun of the man who was hunting for T-Rex. Yet his character’s presented as heroic. > > Love how the piping in one of the buildings were arranged ‘just so’ for Malcolm’s kid to show off her gymnastic skills. Ugh, you’re so right. Don’t get me wrong, I do love the Lost World because it’s just SO awful. I love hating on it. But I first saw it when I was a kid and then when I got older and watched it as an adult, it pissed me off so much that Greenpeace guy is supposed to be a hero. And Sarah Harding, touching the baby steg, helping with the baby T-Rex…and then everyone acts as though Ian Malcolm is so cynical. And the only really competent fellow gets ripped in two by rexes trying to save the morons and spunky gymnast. The book was actually awesome. Sarah Harding was a competent, intelligent person who rescues Malcolm and helps bring down raptors. Why, why, WHY do we have to turn intelligent female characters into sensitive, baby loving “free spirits”? ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/86 "2009-02-10T04:01:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And not just any woman, but an irrationally violent woman who has a disturbing fascination with fire! She’s a gun nut who likes smashing shit, he’s an antiques collector who loves old musicals. Coming up next on “Droid Swap”… ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/87 "2009-02-10T04:12:06Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > The Color Purple? Schindler’s List? Is Oskar Schindler meant to be Christ like? Jaws? Hook? (All right. Dustin Hoffman makes a damned find Christ character.) Catch Me If You Can? > > The only one that really stands out for me is E.T. [Simpsons]I remember another gentle visitor from the heavens. He came in peace, and then died, only to come back to life. And his name was… E.T., the extraterrestrial. I love that little guy.[/Simpsons] I don’t know whether it had a Christ figure, but _Amistad_ featured the Bible and Christianity somewhat prominently. ---
**Author:** ![BaneSidhe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@BaneSidhe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaneSidhe)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/88 "2009-02-10T04:34:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And not just any woman, but an irrationally violent woman who has a disturbing fascination with fire! Hey! I resemble that remark ;)! [actually, I like things that go BOOM!!] ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/89 "2009-02-10T05:01:00Z")
> [@delphica](#): > > Good Will Hunting > Okay, I guess there’s nothing at all creepy about coercing someone into a therapeutic relationship with a psychologist who is even more unhinged than the original guy. And it’s also demeaning for a smart person to do manual labor. I don’t think the point is that it’s demeaning for a smart guy to do manual labor. This segment starting at about 6 minutes in: ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/pVHxfeA9LqM/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/pVHxfeA9LqM?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque And this conversation between Affleck and Damon starting about 40 seconds in: ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/CWFKjoQJrS4/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/CWFKjoQJrS4?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/90 "2009-02-10T07:08:35Z")
_The Fugitive_: For a prominent vascular surgeon with so many character references convinced that he didn’t commit the crime, no presumed history of violence or domestic disturbance, a complete lack of plausible motive, and a henchman so easily identified, he seems to be convicted and sent off for execution awfully quickly. He either has the most incompetent legal representation ever or the lawyer was in on the scheme. Also, what woman is going to pick up a scruffy-looking man walking down the road, even if he is Harrison Ford? That was just bald-ass misdirection for the next scene, involving the recapture of another escapee. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/91 "2009-02-10T07:38:41Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > Not that I really wanna try and throw my hat into this Spielberg argument I do wanna mention that it’s interesting to hear the argument that Spielberg made the movie as a “Self hating” Jew, when he is just re-hashing a true story. > > If the story was made up (and/or written and chosen by him) than that might make some sense. But overall I don’t think you can analyze his views on his own Jewishness and any love or hate he might have therein on a story that is true. If Spielberg had created the story, I imagine he would have turned Schindler’s postwar life into some vomit-inducing ball of sugar and sunshine. Instead of a man who left his wife, saw one business venture after another fail and died in poverty, this Schindler would have gone on to great financial success, and would have enjoyed a stable home life with many rosy-cheeked children (who could then produce adorable grandchildren who would ask "What did you do during the war, grandpa-pa?). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/92 "2009-02-10T08:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Not that I really wanna try and throw my hat into this Spielberg argument I do wanna mention that it’s interesting to hear the argument that Spielberg made the movie as a “Self hating” Jew, when he is just re-hashing a true story. > > If the story was made up (and/or written and chosen by him) than that might make some sense. But overall I don’t think you can analyze his views on his own Jewishness and any love or hate he might have therein on a story that is true. I haven’t seen _Schindler’s List_ so I can’t weigh in on the movie itself. But as a general rule, truth alone is not proof that the filmmaker didn’t have an ulterior motive. There were a hundred million people involved in World War II so a filmmaker can choose to use the true story that conveys the message he wants to give and not choose to skip the true stories that don’t say what he wants to say. And even after he’s chosen his subject, he’s going to be working within the confines of a film and only showing about two hours out of all the decades of somebody’s life. So once again he can simply choose to show the events he wants and leave out the events he doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/93 "2009-02-10T09:04:01Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > My memory of TTRL was this… > > _grasses blowing_ > _soldiers stare silently at each other_ > _cloud drifts across sky…grasses blowing_ > _soldier is about to speak, thinks otherwise, continues to stare_ > _grasses blowing_ > Me to wife “Screw this, I’m getting popcorn, want some?” > > If an interpretive dance poet sat down and made a war movie, this was the result. It’s what war would be like if wars were fought by crack teams of college poetry majors. An actual quote from the movie… “We. We together. One being. Flow together like water. Till I can’t tell you from me. I drink you. Now. Now” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/94 "2009-02-10T10:13:50Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s what war would be like if wars were fought by crack teams of college poetry majors. > > An actual quote from the movie… > > “We. We together. One being. Flow together like water. Till I can’t tell you from me. I drink you. Now. Now” As opposed to \*“I’m a schoolteacher. I teach English composition… in this little town called Adley, Pennsylvania. The last eleven years, I’ve been at Thomas Alva Edison High School. I was a coach of the baseball team in the springtime. Back home, I tell people what I do for a living and they think well, now that figures. But over here, it’s a big, a big mystery. So, I guess I’ve changed some. Sometimes I wonder if I’ve changed so much my wife is even going to recognize me, whenever it is that I get back to her. And how I’ll ever be able to tell her about days like today. Ah, Ryan. I don’t know anything about Ryan. I don’t care. The man means nothing to me. It’s just a name. But if… You know if going to Rumelle and finding him so that he can go home. If that earns me the right to get back to my wife, then that’s my mission…You want to leave? You want to go off and fight the war? All right. All right. I won’t stop you. I’ll even put in the paperwork. I just know that every man I kill the farther away from home I feel.” \* I mean, seriously, who talks like that in real life? It’s just overwrought movie dialogue that sounds impressive as an actor’s monologue. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/95 "2009-02-10T10:20:03Z")
Yeah. Mamet it’s not. Meh, I’m no great judge of film, but I got some enjoyment out of both TTRL and SPR. The cinematography for TTRL was superb. The characters were stupid cardboard cut-outs. SPR was a great story, but … dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/96 "2009-02-10T11:30:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As opposed to \*“I’m a schoolteacher. I teach English composition… in this little town called Adley, Pennsylvania. The last eleven years, I’ve been at Thomas Alva Edison High School. I was a coach of the baseball team in the springtime. Back home, I tell people what I do for a living and they think well, now that figures. But over here, it’s a big, a big mystery. So, I guess I’ve changed some. Sometimes I wonder if I’ve changed so much my wife is even going to recognize me, whenever it is that I get back to her. And how I’ll ever be able to tell her about days like today. Ah, Ryan. I don’t know anything about Ryan. I don’t care. The man means nothing to me. It’s just a name. But if… You know if going to Rumelle and finding him so that he can go home. If that earns me the right to get back to my wife, then that’s my mission…You want to leave? You want to go off and fight the war? All right. All right. I won’t stop you. I’ll even put in the paperwork. I just know that every man I kill the farther away from home I feel.” > \* > I mean, seriously, who talks like that in real life? It’s just overwrought movie dialogue that sounds impressive as an actor’s monologue. I don’t know - I think Hanks and Spielberg manage to sell the scene. YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Professor\_Murder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/90ced4/32.png) [@Professor\_Murder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Professor_Murder)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/97 "2009-02-10T12:23:38Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > _The Fugitive_: For a prominent vascular surgeon with so many character references convinced that he didn’t commit the crime, no presumed history of violence or domestic disturbance, a complete lack of plausible motive, and a henchman so easily identified, he seems to be convicted and sent off for execution awfully quickly. He either has the most incompetent legal representation ever or the lawyer was in on the scheme. > > Also, what woman is going to pick up a scruffy-looking man walking down the road, even if he is Harrison Ford? That was just bald-ass misdirection for the next scene, involving the recapture of another escapee. > > Stranger Yeah I agree, another thing that annoys me about the movie is how the big conspiracy is all about this drug treatment which actually gives people cancer. I mean how could it be profitable for the main bad guy in the long run, having a share of a faulty product. I mean it took Harrison Ford 15 minutes to figure out the treatment didn’t work. I’d imagine the FDA would be at least as stringent. The law suits the company would end up facing would be massive. It always bugs me when the conspiracy is revealed in all its faulty glory. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/98 "2009-02-10T12:39:19Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > And this conversation between Affleck and Damon starting about 40 seconds in: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWFKjoQJrS4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWFKjoQJrS4) Yeah well, there was a continuity error at 3.28 that has just ruined that scene for me, by taking me right out of the moment. Affleck’s canned drink jumps from one hand to the other. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/99 "2009-02-10T13:57:04Z")
> [@Professor\_Murder](#): > > I mean it took Harrison Ford 15 minutes to figure out the treatment didn’t work. I’d imagine the FDA would be at least as stringent. He discovered the test results were falsified, right?. Not that the drug didn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/100 "2009-02-10T14:41:18Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > … The real tragedy of \*SL \*is that it’s simply the horrific context of his actions that make Schindler seem heroic, when he was only heroic by default: he was merely decent. But in a vacuum of decency, one man’s simple, everyday decency \*plays \*like heroism. The most important part of the story of Oskar Schindler is NOT what he did, but the fact that no one else was doing it. That’s the horror of his story, and Spielberg relegates it to the background; uses it to deify Schindler, rather than directly condemning it as the real point of the story. … Exactly, great, so Schindler wasn’t [Amon Göth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amon_G%C3%B6th). That doesn’t make him a hero and at the end it’s clear that he didn’t think what he had done was worth the tribute paid to him by the Schindlerjuden. All he saw at the end is how much more he could have done but didn’t. > [@](#): > > Stern: (Translating the inscription on the ring made for Schindler) It’s Hebrew from the Talmud, it says “whoever saves one life saves the world entire”. > Schindler: I could’ve got more … I could’ve got more, if I’d just…I could’ve got more … > Stern: Oscar, there are eleven hundred people who are alive because of you. Look at them. > Schindler: If I’d made more money…I threw away so much money, you have no idea. If I’d just … > Stern: There will be generations because of what you did. > Schindler: I didn’t do enough. > Stern: You did so much. > Schindler: This car. Göth would’ve bought this car. Why did I keep the car? Ten people, right there. Ten people, ten more people…(He rips the swastika pin from his lapel) This pin, two people. This is gold. Two more people. He would’ve given me two for it. At least one. He would’ve given me one. One more. One more person. A person, Stern. For this. I could’ve gotten one more person and I didn’t. I didn’t …" Whoever saves one life, saves one fucking life and nothing more. > [@Alessan](#): > > … he made the movie he wanted to make instead of the movie you think he should have made. … He didn’t make the movie he (IMHO) wanted to, > [@](#): > > “America and Russia and England all knew about the Holocaust when it was happening, and yet we did nothing about it. We didn’t assign any of our forces to stopping the march toward death, the inexorable march toward death. It was a large bloodstain, primary red color on everyone’s radar, but no one did anything about it. And that’s why I wanted to bring the color red in.”[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schindler%27s_List#Symbols)[/RIGHT] If he really had balls he would have ended the film with Schindler’s breakdown ([the first three minutes here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvyZnOukZLg&feature=related)) and left us all asking why there are no Someothernamejuden, no Churchilljuden, no Stalinjuden, no Rooseveltjuden. We didn’t need to see Göth’s fucked-up hanging. We didn’t need the feel-good scene with all the actors and the real people they portrayed placing stones on Schindler’s grave. We needed to share Schindler’s guilt. A nation made converting human beings into smoke and ash its largest industry, and the world didn’t give a fuck. And we keep on not giving a fuck,[“Never Again” is in fact “Again and Again.”](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/karadzic/genocide/neveragain.html). > [@](#): > > Schindler’s clear indictment of German war criminals in the trials after the war nourished the hatred that many in Germany felt for him. He was persecuted, he was sworn at on the streets, and stones were thrown at him. > > It was said that he was their bad conscience - the conscience of all those who had known something but done nothing.[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.oskarschindler.com/8.htm)[/RIGHT] We needed to own the guilt of all those who knew something and did nothing. What’s the post WWII body count up to, and what did we do to keep it from getting that high? I look in the mirror and I want to see Oskar Schindler, but history makes it pretty clear, it’s more likely it’s Amon Göth that’s looking back at me. CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550.md?page=6)