# Petty rants against well liked movies **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 5, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550 "2009-02-05T11:16:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Jester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jester/32/8223_2.png) [@Jester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jester)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/121 "2009-02-10T17:10:24Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > The detriment comes in the form of the choice of lenses. Narrative doesn’t _have_ to resort to simplifying, easy-to-digest archetypes. Art is perfectly capable of conveying complexity and challenging us with hard questions about our own souls. But when a true historical enormity is used as grist for _popular entertainment_ – don’t pretend Spielberg is in any other business but that – then naturally art falls into the old storytelling ruts that don’t tell us anything new at all. I’d agree that, most of the time, all Spielberg is doing is making popular entertainment, but I’d argue pretty strongly that it wasn’t his primary goal with _Schindler’s List_. A goal, sure, but he wasn’t thinking “Hey! I wanna make a bazillion bucks! Let’s slap together this story about an anti-Nazi Nazi! People love that shit!” Holocaust movies weren’t really a cottage industry at the time SL was made (and, for better or for worse, SL is probably one of the reasons that they became a bit of one). Just because it made money doesn’t mean it didn’t have a worthwhile story to tell, and it was a story that hadn’t been told before and that is pretty deserving of remembrance. > [@](#): > > I don’t disagree, but the thing is, I think we have to acknowledge that it _isn’t_ portrayed in anything like a complete fashion, in the context of six million people deliberately murdered. It’s been said before, but again: How do you properly convey the deaths of six million people? How do you give that enough “weight,” when it is in fact the context of the story you’re telling, and not the exact center of the story itself? How do you not make if feel cheap and tacked on? Elie Wiesel focused almost entirely on his personal story in _Night_. Did he fail? Was he being selfish? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/122 "2009-02-10T17:10:25Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > The detriment comes in the form of the choice of lenses. Narrative doesn’t _have_ to resort to simplifying, easy-to-digest archetypes. Art is perfectly capable of conveying complexity and challenging us with hard questions about our own souls. But when a true historical enormity is used as grist for _popular entertainment_ – don’t pretend Spielberg is in any other business but that – then naturally art falls into the old storytelling ruts that don’t tell us anything new at all. You say “popular entertainment” like it’s a bad thing. What use are unpopular, unentertaining stories? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/123 "2009-02-10T17:20:30Z")
Missed edit window in continuing respose to Martiju: I don’t disagree, but the thing is, I think we have to acknowledge that it _isn’t_ portrayed in anything like a complete fashion, in the context of six **million** people deliberately murdered. Such an easy figure to rattle off, but to sit down and seriously think about it – probably more people than I’ll ever know in my life – makes me gasp for air, or maybe puts me in danger of having my head explode as Jester says above. But that’s what such an enormity demands, if you can see what I mean. It demands to throw me off kilter, not just shock or anger or inspire me, but to make me say “whoah” and start to question just what the hell kind of species are we – including myself – that such things would ever happen? > [@](#): > > It’s been said before, but again: How do you properly convey the deaths of six million people? How do you give that enough “weight,” when it is in fact the context of the story you’re telling, and not the exact center of the story itself? How do you not make if feel cheap and tacked on? Elie Wiesel focused almost entirely on his personal story in Night. Did he fail? Was he being selfish? 'Course not, and I don’t really mean to be anti-Spielberg, SL is obviously a good movie. (Also, I confess that I haven’t seen Night.) But I guess I mean to point out that movies have some unavoidable constraints, such that even when Spielberg isn’t out to make a bazillion bucks he still adheres – necessarily, because he’s a good filmmaker – to certain conventions that would distort our understanding of events if the films were viewed in a vacuum. And our cultural context is such that I fear that’s just the way they _are_ viewed, if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/124 "2009-02-10T17:22:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You say “popular entertainment” like it’s a bad thing. What use are unpopular, unentertaining stories? Birth of a Nation was a popular and quite entertaining story. And some quarters did find it quite “useful”, if that’s the right word. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/125 "2009-02-10T17:23:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Close Encounters of the Third Kind > > I can remember being awed by this movie when it first came out. I tried to watch it again recently and found it really difficult to sit through. Juvenile drivel is the phrase that springs to mind, it’s almost embarrassing to watch it now remembering how good I thought it was all those years ago. > > And those aliens! They just look so damn silly now. If it makes you feel any better, I didn’t care for the movie very much when it first came out. I mean, heck, it ended when the aliens _landed_! That’s when the movie should _START_! I didn’t care for **E.T.** , either. ---
**Author:** ![Jester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jester/32/8223_2.png) [@Jester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jester)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/126 "2009-02-10T17:24:03Z")
**Koxinga** : On that one, we’re definitely in agreement. SL is in no way the be-all, end-all of Holocaust film. Instead, I see it as just part of a tapestry; it tells a compelling and effective story that, stitched together with other, different compelling and effective stories, begins to give us some feasible way into the enormity of what an event like the Holocaust truly is (rather than, as you say, rattling off numbers). The head-spinning enormity of it is only going to come across when we see the head-spinning number of truly personal, disparate stories that emerged from it. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/127 "2009-02-10T17:25:20Z")
Was “Night” made into a movie? I know it’s a book by Elie Wiesel, but I wasn’t aware it was also a film. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/128 "2009-02-10T17:35:49Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Ugh, you’re so right. Don’t get me wrong, I do love the Lost World because it’s just SO awful. I love hating on it. But I first saw it when I was a kid and then when I got older and watched it as an adult, it pissed me off so much that Greenpeace guy is supposed to be a hero. And Sarah Harding, touching the baby steg, helping with the baby T-Rex…and then everyone acts as though Ian Malcolm is so cynical. And the only really competent fellow gets ripped in two by rexes trying to save the morons and spunky gymnast. > > The book was actually awesome. Sarah Harding was a competent, intelligent person who rescues Malcolm and helps bring down raptors. Why, why, WHY do we have to turn intelligent female characters into sensitive, baby loving “free spirits”? Oo, is that the one with the gal who was The World’s Stupidest Paleontologist? The one who cautions about not interfering and blah blah responsible scientist babble until she sees Da Liddle Baby Dinos and starts touching them and getting dino blood on her and all that? I wanted to hit her. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/129 "2009-02-10T17:42:54Z")
Sorry to interrupt this holocaust thread with a petty rant against a well liked movie :dubious: > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > _The Fugitive_: > > Also, what woman is going to pick up a scruffy-looking man walking down the road, even if he is Harrison Ford? That was just bald-ass misdirection for the next scene, involving the recapture of another escapee. > > Stranger I don’t have a cite handy, but I remember hearing that this was an homage to the original Fugitive TV program where David Janssen always seemed to easily get a ride whenever needed. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/130 "2009-02-10T17:46:29Z")
> [@delphica](#): > > Good Will Hunting > Okay, I guess there’s nothing at all creepy about coercing someone into a therapeutic relationship with a psychologist who is even more unhinged than the original guy. And it’s also demeaning for a smart person to do manual labor. I wouldn’t say that Sean the psychologist was more unhinged than Will. Far from it. He might have had issues about connecting with people after his wife’s death, but he was articulate, well-educated, and law-abiding. Will was out of control; the only reason he was coerced into therapy in the first place was that he was facing jail time for assaulting a police officer. Also, I don’t think the message was that manual labor was demeaning for a smart person. If you remember, Sean spent much of the film trying to talk Gerald, Will’s mentor, _out of_ forcing Will into a think tank before he was ready. The movie was trying to say that it was wrong for Will to settle for manual labor without making a careful, well-thought-out decision _which he was incapable of doing because of his psychological issues_. Will wasn’t doing manual labor because he liked it; he was simply afraid to try anything else. The virtue of manual labor aside, Will is wasting his time on that construction site. Chucky says as much to him at the end of the movie, and Chucky’s the best friend Will ever had. Sean might have used some powers of persuasion to make Will see the light, but come on! No one could force Will to do anything he didn’t want to do. Hell, in the end, Will didn’t even take the job in the think tank. He went off to re-connect with Skylar, which is probably the first brave independent decision he ever made. I loved **Good Will Hunting** , and my complaint has nothing to do with the story. It’s the casting. Robin Williams playing a Southie who can bench 285 and manhandle Matt Damon? Riiiiiight. The guy didn’t even have a Boston accent. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/131 "2009-02-10T18:05:19Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Oo, is that the one with the gal who was The World’s Stupidest Paleontologist? The one who cautions about not interfering and blah blah responsible scientist babble until she sees Da Liddle Baby Dinos and starts touching them and getting dino blood on her and all that? I wanted to hit her. Yup! She makes this whole speech about how they can’t even toss cigarette butts on the ground (fair enough), and then not a moment later, she’s up close, taking pictures of the baby steg, stroking it, and then after the adults attack, she doesn’t even have the good grace to look ashamed. And yeah, she walked around for hours in a bloody vest in dino country. Stupid! And at one point, she lectures Ian Malcolm for coming to rescue her because it’s not necessary, not at all. The only person in that movie I had the slightest bit of respect for was Roland Tembo, the big game hunter. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/132 "2009-02-10T18:15:29Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Was “Night” made into a movie? I know it’s a book by Elie Wiesel, but I wasn’t aware it was also a film. According to both Wiki and IMDB, no, it hasn’t been made into a movie. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/133 "2009-02-10T19:05:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Toy Story - Loved the movie, but it always bugged me that Woody comes alive for the bully next door neighboor and uses all the mutilated toys to scare the shit out of him. I had a different problem with that scene. It showed that the toys were voluntarily acting like toys and could “break the rules” if they chose and reveal themselves to people. So why did Buzz, who didn’t admit he was a toy, follow the toy rules? He thought he was a regular person so why didn’t he act like a regular person? It would have been in character for him to talk to Andy and say “Hello, giant alien, my name is Buzz Lightyear and I’ve come to your planet to meet your leaders.” ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/134 "2009-02-10T20:01:16Z")
Maybe a “The Holocaust in Cinema” or “The Holocaust and Art” thread should be started by **lissener** or **Alessan** or someone else. I’m curious, have either of you seen [The Grey Zone](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252480/) and what did you think of it? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/135 "2009-02-10T20:39:27Z")
My minor rant about **Toy Story 2** – and it’s really a minor rant, as I love the film overall – is that none of the Cowboy Woody toys in the Comic Book Guy’s Apartment (aside from the actual doll figures) is sentient, like the other toys in the movie. They’re the only toys that are “frozen” in toy form. So when Woody knocks out the teeth in the Giant Woody Head with the beanbags, it’s just an inanimate head. And so is the Snake in His Boot. Maybe they thought it would be Just Too Creepy if those toys were aline, as well. Not to mention complicating the interactions between StinkyPete, Jessie, and the Horse ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/136 "2009-02-10T21:33:37Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Maybe a “The Holocaust in Cinema” or “The Holocaust and Art” thread should be started by **lissener** or **Alessan** or someone else. I’m curious, have either of you seen [The Grey Zone](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252480/) and what did you think of it? I’d be interested in reading that. Also, perhaps a thread about Speilberg as a self-hating Jew, since that’s kind of interesting, even though I don’t really see it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/137 "2009-02-10T21:35:38Z")
I never thought about that, Cal, but you’re right. My conclusion? The other toys weren’t alive because Toy Barn Al murdered them. He was a toy necromancer who planned on sacrificing Woody, Jessie, Stinky Pete, and Bullseye in a ceremony during the next full moon. I can’t understand why the Pixar people won’t return my phone calls. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/138 "2009-02-10T21:55:43Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > _The Fugitive_: For a prominent vascular surgeon with so many character references convinced that he didn’t commit the crime, no presumed history of violence or domestic disturbance, a complete lack of plausible motive, and a henchman so easily identified, he seems to be convicted and sent off for execution awfully quickly. He either has the most incompetent legal representation ever or the lawyer was in on the scheme. > Stranger Seeing as how the actual judge refused to sequester Sheppard’s jury, did not order them to ignore media reports, and on the first day of trial said, “Well, he’s guilty as hell. There’s no question about it,” I was OK with that part. Why the Chicago Police thought he was a cop killer, when several people on the subway witnessed that he was not, was more irritating. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/139 "2009-02-10T23:34:10Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] If you’re serious here–although your tone is dismissive and sarcastic, so I suspect not–but if you are, I should point out that the reason SL is a denier’s Holocaust movie is precisely because “some Jews live.” The movie minimizes the Holocaust, and reduces it to about the level of “Well THAT’S not so bad” that deniers attempt to reduce the Holocaust to. But again, I’m sure you got that and were just being sarcastic. [/QUOTE] Actually, I was being sincere there. This movie didn’t minimize the Holocaust, it told the story of one small group of Jews and the NAZI who defied expectations. It is not meant to convey the whole of the Holocaust in itself. Frankly, I don’t understand your views at all. > [@](#): > > The real tragedy of SL is that it’s simply the horrific context of his actions that make Schindler seem heroic, when he was only heroic by default: he was merely decent. But in a vacuum of decency, one man’s simple, everyday decency plays like heroism. The most important part of the story of Oskar Schindler is NOT what he did, but the fact that no one else was doing it. That’s the horror of his story, and Spielberg relegates it to the background; uses it to deify Schindler, rather than directly condemning it as the real point of the story. That’s certainly a valid opinion about the reality of the circumstances and the what the movie should have been. But Speilberg didn’t agree. [QUOTE=lissener] What bugged me most about Shrek is that, for all it’s about the insignificance of exterior appearances, the ugly guy still didn’t get a pretty girl: she had to be uglied down to his level before they could be together. [/QUOTE] That’s an interesting interpretation, though not the one they intended. They intended to say that she _chose_ to be ugly, and Shrek loved her anyway. But it didn’t come off that way to me, either. [QUOTE=YogSosoth] Star Wars: A New Hope Blowing up a planet apparently is about as easy as turning on the lights. Also, nobody really notices since there are a lot of planets anyway. [/QUOTE] Well, it is that easy when you have a Death Star. Also, the lack of notice is a concession to the size of the Galaxy. Communications are not instantaneous. [QUOTE=MyFootsZZZ] **Jurassic Park:** Dennis Nedry closed the Main gate. How did the T-Rex get to the visitor center, let alone inside, and how did no one hear it coming? [/QUOTE] Obviously, T-rex tip-toed. [QUOTE=aldiboronti] And those aliens! They just look so damn silly now. [/QUOTE] They actually show the aliens in Close Encounters? How did I miss that? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550/140 "2009-02-11T00:33:38Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > (A) Well, it is that easy when you have a Death Star. Also, the lack of notice is a concession to the size of the Galaxy. Communications are not instantaneous. > > (B)They actually show the aliens in Close Encounters? How did I miss that? A. Not “instantaneous”, but still pretty quick - they had the hyperdrive, of course. B. They came out at the end of the movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/petty-rants-against-well-liked-movies/484550.md?page=8)