# Pew Poll: 44 Percent of Liberal Democrats Say Churches Bad for America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699 "2017-10-01T03:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/21 "2017-10-01T05:57:30Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > Because it foments anti-Christian bigotry, and leads to moral relativism and a hatred of the Christian biblical principles that have defined this great country for over 300 years. > > . I’ve heard this often, but no one has ever mentioned exactly what those principles are. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/22 "2017-10-01T05:58:22Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And the churches you respect so much came out strongly in favor of the adulterer. > Maybe their hypocrisy had something to do with the results of the poll. Wouldn’t surprise me. The constantly repeated conceit that the U.S. is such a religious country is total BS. Most Americans only _say_ they are religious, and put on superficial appearances to act as though they are. Their behavior when they think no one is looking belies them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/23 "2017-10-01T06:43:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is this the same pew poll that says ? > Why do right-wing Republicans hate higher education? Simple: to Republicans, facts bad, fairy tales good. And before someone gets offended, religion is only a minor part of the fairy tales. I’m more worried about the fairy tales they believe about economic policy and climate science. Those are the dangerous ones. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/24 "2017-10-01T07:30:12Z")
80% of “white evangelicals” voted for Trump. That _is_ bad for America; _Trump_ is bad for America, and not just in a “Well, I don’t agree with his policy positions” way. Trump is morally unfit to hold _any_ elected office, let alone President of the United States. (To be fair to the churches, that’s the “white evangelicals”, which is a fairly narrowly defined slice of American Christianity; “black evangelicals” or “Latino Catholics” had different voting patterns.) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/25 "2017-10-01T07:58:38Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > Because it foments anti-Christian bigotry, and leads to moral relativism and a hatred of the Christian biblical principles that have defined this great country for over 300 years. Well, Christian biblical principles _did_ define America for the early part of our history. (Actually, it’s over _400_ years. Time flies!) Biblical principles like [divine right of kings](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-7&version=NIV), [a firm rejection of the idea that people have any “right” to worship false gods](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+13&version=NIV)\*, and a recognition of [the necessity of putting people to death for witchcraft](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+22:18&version=NIV) were common (if not entirely universal) in the first part of American history. \*Granted, early Americans didn’t _always_ [follow that one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams). Fortunately, though, we had a revolution; and we didn’t just change from being “the American colonies of the (Christian) Kingdom of Great Britain” to “the (Christian) Kingdom of America”. We rejected divine right of kings and went from the Biblical idea of government: > [@](#): > > Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. To the revolutionary liberal idea of government: > [@](#): > > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. We also rejected the idea that religious belief was something that should be enforced by society at large (on pain of death, even); and embraced the radical notion that not only should religion be a matter of every single person’s individual conscience, but that the state should be secular–without any [religious tests for holding public office](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/tocs/a6_3.html) and without any sort of [establishment of religion by the civil government](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/tocs/amendI_religion.html). We also eventually rejected Biblical ideas like [slavery](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6:5&version=NIV), and embraced other [radical and un-Biblical ideas, like equal political and social rights for women](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A11-15&version=NIV). (And nowadays, [gay and lesbian rights](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1%3A26-27&version=NIV), too.) In short, as Americans have defined our country in increasingly un-Biblical and even anti-Biblical terms, America has become more and more truly great–more free and more just. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/26 "2017-10-01T09:52:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Two questions: > > How was “liberal” defined and who defined it? At the link, it says 36% of _all_ Dems view churches negatively. IMHO, that 8-point difference between liberal Dems and all Dems is hardly surprising, and IMHO doesn’t suggest that the definition of ‘liberal’ is a concern here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/27 "2017-10-01T09:59:11Z")
I think the question as worded is more likely to get a negative result. taking all churches as a whole, I’d say “negative effect”. IMO, the good churches tend to be diverse and devout. But the majority are either too political, expect nada from their congregation making them effectively secular(without the benefits of being secular), or steeped in traditions that aren’t particularly biblical and which few feel like questioning because they can’t be bothered to give a damn. Those that do, end up populating the newer churches. Just my opinion, but my view of the Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Presbytyrian churches is fairly negative. My opinion of the Mormon church, Seventh Day Adventist Church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Calvary Chapel, and the Churches of Christ is a lot higher. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/28 "2017-10-01T10:13:43Z")
I wouldn’t be surprised if most churchgoing people had a negative opinion of churches - with the possible exception of the one they go to. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/29 "2017-10-01T10:19:42Z")
True, if they think that their church is awesome but more important churches have a negative influence… A lot of Adventists would probably think so, since they fear the imposition of what they call “Sunday law”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/30 "2017-10-01T10:53:54Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > From the [article](http://www.christianpost.com/news/44-percent-liberal-democrats-churches-bad-pew-191610/): > You can read the entire Pew poll [here](http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisions-in-views-of-national-institutions/). > > As a pretty conservative Republican, and a devout Baptist Christian, I find these results to be pretty disheartening. I’m a born-again Christian. I’ve known the Lord for 47 years. You _should_ find these results disheartening, but not for the reasons you do. Conservative Christians have, over the past 40 years, publicly abandoned love and compassion in favor of hard-heartedness towards those in need, turning their faith into a set of rules they seek to impose on the secular state, and an Other-ing of nontrivial sin and the groups they see as being guilty in large numbers of such sin. Nothing could illustrate this better than the way evangelical Christians have been unwavering in their overwhelming support of Trump and Republicans as they’ve sought to take health care away from tens of millions of Americans, and gut the value and usefulness of health insurance for those of us who would still be able to afford it. Exactly why you’d support a political party that seeks to make life worse for tens of millions, and prematurely end the lives of many thousands each year (by your lights, sending many of them to eternal damnation while reducing the time you have to reach them and seek to bring them to the Lord), when you’re a _Christian_…did you ever sing “they’ll know we are Christians by our love” when you were in fellowships or youth groups? I did. Funny way of loving people. The truth is, these days, it’s more that we know they are Christians by their assholishness. Of _course_ many people have jaundiced view of Christians and their churches. The people who don’t are mostly the people who think it’s OK to be a destructive force in the lives of many millions of people, whether or not they’re doing it in the name of the Lord. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/31 "2017-10-01T11:17:00Z")
Actually, what surprises me in the poll results is that even among liberal Democrats, roughly as many people view churches positively as negatively. Conservative Christians should be astounded that, despite decades of trying, they haven’t totally discredited Christianity among people who don’t share their world view. There is still time for them to repent and be about love instead of hardheartedness. A result of this poll that’s unsurprising, but still depressing: two years ago, this same poll found that most Republicans viewed colleges and universities positively, by a 54-37 margin. Now that’s more than reversed itself: Republicans view colleges negatively by 58-36. Not only is the Republican rejection of higher learning depressing, but the background: there has been no major scandal in higher ed that’s led to this. Rather, this swing seems to have resulted from a wave of right-wing agitprop to discredit higher education. Clearly, many Republicans will believe what they’re told to believe. Republicans also view the national news media negatively by 85-10. (My assumption is that they don’t view Fox News as being a news medium, and I’d have to agree.) It makes it hard to have a healthy debate about anything in this country when conservatives and liberals aren’t even working from the same (supposed) facts. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/32 "2017-10-01T11:59:34Z")
Republicans don’t reject higher learning, they just don’t like how colleges have become political. I think the same thing is at play with churches. Of course, colleges and churches have always been political, but there used to be more diversity of viewpoints. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/33 "2017-10-01T12:07:45Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > The constantly repeated conceit that the U.S. is such a religious country is total BS. Most Americans only _say_ they are religious, and put on superficial appearances to act as though they are. Their behavior when they think no one is looking belies them. No, I disagree. The United States IS a very religious country. But religious individuals make up their own version of religion which is convenient for them but, sadly, is often immoral (get rich quick using God’s Abundance! Kill the Fags! Don’t “race-mix”! Eat no Lemons on Thursdays!). And Jesus wept. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/34 "2017-10-01T12:08:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Moral relativism, huh? > In the last election we had one candidate who is a Sunday School teacher and who stood by her husband through thick and thin. > Then we had another who was a serial adulterer, bragged about assaulting women, used to be for abortion until it was politically expedient to be against it, and clearly never read the Bible. (Two Corinthians, huh?) > And the churches you respect so much came out strongly in favor of the adulterer. > Maybe their hypocrisy had something to do with the results of the poll. > > Your church would no doubt come out strongly for Satan if he registered Republican. Thank you. I recall that photo-op prayer group that Trump gathered. All with heads solemnly bowed, and Trumps head looking up from the huddle as if to say: “Is this over yet? How long do we do this for?” ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/35 "2017-10-01T12:20:44Z")
I think it’s push back against the Christian idea that they get to dictate how everyone else lives. Check the constitution. You get to practice your religion. PERIOD. Not dictate the laws of the land to abide by YOUR religion. Christianity was a kind of de facto religion of state for a lot of years. Prayer in school, 10 commandments on the walls of the courthouse, creche in the town square, etc. But that is never what the framers of the constitution intended, its right there for all to read. And I get that it sucks to suddenly realize you’re not the majority any more. But that’s not the same as being under attack. Pretending it is, and pushing the idea that we all have to live as Christians because the founders were, pretending a Christmas season that starts before Halloween and is ten times a bigger deal than when any of us were kids is some kind of war on Christmas, these things are what is driving away support from Christianity, in my opinion. American Christians have turned themselves into a joke on the world stage and have only themselves to blame. Now the home of a lot of hate, toward gays, trans, Muslims, etc. Yeah, it’s not ALL Christians but do you ever hear them, denounce the hatred the others spew? Nope. The Christian Right proudly lined up behind a guy who jokes about grabbing women by the pussy! Who cheated on every wife he had, etc, etc. Because he is anti abortion! Why should anyone respect your Christian values when you don’t respect them enough to denounce the pussy grabber or hate speakers as long as they support your pet cause. When you show who you really are they are going to judge you accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/36 "2017-10-01T12:26:48Z")
Of course colleges are political. Outside of kittens and roly-poly puppies, just about everything is political, to one degree or another. Knowledge is not in itself political, but the purposes to which it is applied… ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/37 "2017-10-01T12:35:03Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > The debate is whether the increasing secularization of American liberals and the Democratic Party has made them irrationally hostile to religion and Christianity. I say it has. And I also say it is bad for the country. Australia is one of the most non-religious / atheist countries in the world. We had an openly atheist Prime Minister in the 1980s (Bob Hawke). It’s a pretty nice place to live overall. Question for you Mr Bruiser, do you think that agnostics / atheists who have a moral code and try to be good people are better or worse for the US than people who claim to be Christians but are bigoted or hypocritical? (Please remember the bit in the bible about the mote / plank in yours or others eyes) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/38 "2017-10-01T13:14:43Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > LOL, man who voted for a pro-choice atheist, one married to not one but two Godless Communists, decries America’s dawning realization that Evangelical Christianity is full of shit. Hey, as a non-Christian who voted for Hillary, I’m as glad as the next guy to dwell on Trump’s shortcomings – but I’m not sure I get what “pro-choice” is doing, there. Say you’re _not_ pro-choice; say, even, that you solemnly resolved to do what you can to _oppose_ elective abortions in general, and taxpayer-funded ones in particular. And say, too, that what you wrote is true: that Trump is pro-choice. But say, too, that Hillary Clinton is pro-choice; for _whom,_ then, should you vote? For the one who’ll do her presidentin’ as if she were pro-choice; or the one who’s more likely to sign GOP bills on the subject, and tap GOP darlings for the Supreme Court? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/39 "2017-10-01T13:21:57Z")
So…you’re saying, given the choices, voting for the self declared racist, pussy grabber, IS the Christian thing to do? And that, right there, is why people have lost faith in churches, and their ‘good influence’. Christian values indeed! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/40 "2017-10-01T13:41:04Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Hey, as a non-Christian who voted for Hillary, I’m as glad as the next guy to dwell on Trump’s shortcomings – but I’m not sure I get what “pro-choice” is doing, there. Say you’re _not_ pro-choice; say, even, that you solemnly resolved to do what you can to _oppose_ elective abortions in general, and taxpayer-funded ones in particular. > > And say, too, that what you wrote is true: that Trump is pro-choice. But say, too, that Hillary Clinton is pro-choice; for _whom,_ then, should you vote? For the one who’ll do her presidentin’ as if she were pro-choice; or the one who’s more likely to sign GOP bills on the subject, and tap GOP darlings for the Supreme Court? The issue isn’t the “pro-choice” bit, the issue is that the Evangelists voted for a man who has been pro-choice for 68 of his 70 years, only changing his stance for the 2016 race. In other words, I’m highlighting _their_ hypocrisy on the abortion issue by noting that their candidate is pro-choice. After all, they had 15 other Republican candidates to choose from, all with impeccable “pro-life” resumes. They chose the man who, until 2015, was pro-choice. Then they put him in the White House. Really, getting down to it, you don’t bang as many Eastern European sex slaves as DJT did in the 90s and 00s and be against abortion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699.md?page=3)