# Pew Poll: 44 Percent of Liberal Democrats Say Churches Bad for America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699 "2017-10-01T03:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/61 "2017-10-01T23:11:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Republicans don’t reject higher learning, they just don’t like how colleges have become political. I think the same thing is at play with churches. Of course, colleges and churches have always been political, but there used to be more diversity of viewpoints. I went to college in the early '70s, when the SDS was quite popular. More political now? Please, you crack me up. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/62 "2017-10-01T23:26:21Z")
The OP thinks this is bad for America simply because his personal worldview is not accepted by more people. Well I’ll tell ya, Christianity is a false religion, and the more people understand this, it can only be a good thing for the country. ---
**Author:** ![Bruiser1036](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Bruiser1036](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruiser1036)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/63 "2017-10-01T23:29:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Hey **Bruiser** , do you think Americans in general are obligated to follow God’s law if it conflicts with man’s law? > > Like for example, take some random person off the street who isn’t a member of your church. Do you believe that this person has an obligation to either agree with or promote your church’s views on matters like abortion, same sex marriage, or other issues? I do believe the country as a whole would be better if us citizens followed the moral laws that Almighty God laid out in the New Testament, yes. I go to a Baptist church, and while any random person off the street does not have an obligation to agree with my church’s conservative (and, in my opinion, correct) views on abortion, same-sex marriage, and other issues, I would obviously prefer it if they did. Yes, it is important for there to be a separation of church and state. But the wall between the two should not be made of fucking titanium. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/64 "2017-10-01T23:33:58Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > I do believe the country as a whole would be better if us citizens followed the moral laws that Almighty God laid out in the New Testament, yes. I tend not to give much credence to fictional characters myself. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/65 "2017-10-01T23:34:27Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > Yes, it is important for there to be a separation of church and state. **But the wall between the two should not be made of fucking titanium**. How about 32’ of solid neutronium? And about 97.4 km high. Until “Christians” start **acting like** Christ I want them kept as far from me and my country as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Bruiser1036](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Bruiser1036](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruiser1036)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/66 "2017-10-01T23:35:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, it is. The Bible is in favor of it. If a woman is suspected of having cheated on her husband, she’s supposed to be given abortifacient herbs, along with a prayer that they won’t affect her if she’s actually innocent. [The Bible is not, in fact, in favor of abortion.](https://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html) [At all.](https://carm.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion) But hey, what do you liberals care about facts. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/67 "2017-10-01T23:37:21Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > [The Bible is not, in fact, > in favor of abortion.](https://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html) > > [At all.](https://carm.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion) > > But hey, what do you liberals care about facts. We care a lot about facts, which is why a lot of us don’t accept the fiction of Jesus or any other of that crap. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/68 "2017-10-01T23:39:14Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > [The Bible is not, in fact, > in favor of abortion.](https://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html) > > [At all.](https://carm.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion) > > But hey, what do you liberals care about facts. How about you get me a mainstream academic source from a professional who specializes in the field instead a link to damn apologetics website. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/69 "2017-10-01T23:39:56Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > I do believe the country as a whole would be better if us citizens followed the moral laws that Almighty God laid out in the New Testament, yes. > > I go to a Baptist church, and while any random person off the street does not have an obligation to agree with my church’s conservative (and, in my opinion, correct) views on abortion, same-sex marriage, and other issues, I would obviously prefer it if they did. > > Yes, it is important for there to be a separation of church and state. But the wall between the two should not be made of fucking titanium. Absolutely it should be an electrified, 50 ft thick chobham armored wall. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/70 "2017-10-01T23:43:37Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > Yes, it is important for there to be a separation of church and state. But the wall between the two should not be made of fucking titanium. I don’t know what this means. Can you explain? In a different vein, do you think atheists should be allowed to serve in government, like as elected officials, appointed officers, or judges? ---
**Author:** ![Bruiser1036](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Bruiser1036](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruiser1036)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/71 "2017-10-02T00:02:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t know what this means. Can you explain? > > In a different vein, do you think atheists should be allowed to serve in government, like as elected officials, appointed officers, or judges? Yes, I do, but it’s highly unlikely I would vote for them given they would be unlikely to share my views, and might pursue an anti-theist agenda. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/72 "2017-10-02T00:05:15Z")
Anti-theist is not the same as atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/73 "2017-10-02T00:11:25Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > Yes, I do, but it’s highly unlikely I would vote for them given they would be unlikely to share my views, and might pursue an anti-theist agenda. So what did you mean that the wall between church and state shouldn’t be fucking titanium? Like, some examples where you think the wall should be lower might be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/74 "2017-10-02T00:18:12Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > I do believe the country as a whole would be better if us citizens followed the moral laws that Almighty God laid out in the New Testament, yes. > > I go to a Baptist church, and while any random person off the street does not have an obligation to agree with my church’s conservative (and, in my opinion, correct) views on abortion, same-sex marriage, and other issues, I would obviously prefer it if they did. Don’t you ever think it possible that those church teachings (and your opinion, since you bring it up) can sometimes be _in conflict_ with Jesus’ teachings about loving and respecting your fellow humans, and being humble before God? All that gay-bashing and misogyny and racism and minister-enriching at which your denomination is often at the forefront often looks pretty damn un-Christian, you know. The finest, most honorable religious people, Christian and otherwise, that I know don’t go to church at all. They \*live \*it. ---
**Author:** ![Bruiser1036](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Bruiser1036](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruiser1036)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/75 "2017-10-02T00:18:38Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Anti-theist is not the same as atheist. Are you denying that the majority of atheists also appear to be anti-theists as well, particularly most of the public spokesmen of the New Atheist movement, like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and PZ Myers. Hell, Harris has outright [said](https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/science-must-destroy-religion) he wants to use science to destroy religion. A militant atheist fanatic, he most certainly is. ---
**Author:** ![Bruiser1036](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Bruiser1036](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruiser1036)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/76 "2017-10-02T00:24:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So what did you mean that the wall between church and state shouldn’t be fucking titanium? Like, some examples where you think the wall should be lower might be helpful. It should be made of bricks, that are not impenetrable. As Joe Lieberman once said, “freedom of religion does not mean freedom _from_ religion.” We must dedicate our nation to God’s purpose. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/77 "2017-10-02T00:29:08Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > We must dedicate our nation to God’s purpose. 🆒 Why? And who made you the arbitrator of “God’s purpose”? Are you the Pope? (Once upon a time, it was feared that JFK would put the US under Vatican rule. How things have changed!) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/78 "2017-10-02T00:31:08Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > It should be made of bricks, that are not impenetrable. > > As Joe Lieberman once said, “freedom of religion does not mean freedom _from_ religion.” > > We must dedicate our nation to God’s purpose. 🆒 Look, I’m trying to understand your point, but I feel like you’re talking in riddles. Bricks not titanium? Separation of church and state but dedicate our government to God? The First Amendment doesn’t protect atheism? I don’t know what you’re saying, so again, could you give some examples of where the wall between the two should be lowered? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/79 "2017-10-02T00:31:11Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > Are you denying that the majority of atheists also appear to be anti-theists as well, particularly most of the public spokesmen of the New Atheist movement, like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and PZ Myers. > > Hell, Harris has outright [said](https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/science-must-destroy-religion) he wants to use science to destroy religion. A militant atheist fanatic, he most certainly is. The militant fanatics are always the loudest in any group of people, even if their extreme views aren’t shared by the group. But anyway, antitheism isn’t trying to take your precious fairy tales away from you. Just to get them out of public policy. > [@](#): > > Audience member: My question to Christopher is; how you can justify wanting to take something away from people, that gives meaning to 95% of the American people, and replace it with something that gives meaning to just 5% of the American people? > > Christopher Hitchens: Hah! Well. What an incredibly stupid question. First, I’ve said repeatedly that this stuff cannot be taken away from people, it is their favourite toy and it will remain so, as Freud said with The Future of an Illusion, for as long as we’re afraid of death—which I think is likely to be quite a long time. Second—I hope I’ve made it clear that I’m perfectly happy for people to have these toys, and to play with them at home, and hug them to themselves and so on, and share them with other people who come around and play with their toys. So that’s absolutely fine. They are not to make me play with these toys. Ok? I will not. Play. With. The toys. Don’t bring the toys to my house. Don’t say my children must play with these toys. Don’t say my toys—might be a condom, here we go again—are not allowed by their toys. I’m not going to have any of that. Enough with clerical and religious bullying and intimidation! Is that finally clear? Have I got that across? Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/80 "2017-10-02T00:36:52Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > It should be made of bricks, that are not impenetrable. > > As Joe Lieberman once said, “freedom of religion does not mean freedom _from_ religion.” > > We must dedicate our nation to God’s purpose. 🆒 Why must we? What is God’s purpose?" Which God? Why that God and not any of the others? How is it that you get to decide this for the rest of us? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699.md?page=5)