# Pew Poll: 44 Percent of Liberal Democrats Say Churches Bad for America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699 "2017-10-01T03:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/121 "2017-10-02T18:24:39Z")
Or you could have voted for someone who _didn’t_ have an established lifelong habit of lying to your face. Or you could have noticed that there are many, many other issues that matter too. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/122 "2017-10-02T18:31:49Z")
Or you could have just noted that the decision a woman makes on whether to continue a pregnancy or not is just none of your goddamn fucking business. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/123 "2017-10-02T18:42:51Z")
> [@Bruiser1036](#): > > Because it foments anti-Christian bigotry Awww, is-ums feeling “persecuted”? > [@L. Sprague deCamp](#): > > “You don’t like the Goths?” > “No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!” > “Persecution?” > “Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever.” > “I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased.” > “That’s just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about their business unmolested, as if they owned the country. If that isn’t persecution, I’d like to know what is!” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/124 "2017-10-02T19:04:44Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > Ideally we’d vote for a man that was Pro-Life for 70 of his 70 years, but given out choices are one that’s currently Pro-Life and one that’s currently Pro-Choice the choice is obvious. We know he’s a pussy grabber but our view is all politicians are scumbags and we’re not electing the Pope, so we go for the scumbag that supports our policy positions, whatever personal shortcomings the other side brings up are irrelevant. All right, but you’d better _never_ complain about things like moral relativism or the christian right wing being labeled hypocritical again. You’d better _own_ that shit. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/125 "2017-10-02T19:14:56Z")
EDIT: I cannot run a browser correctly. Accidental double post. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/126 "2017-10-02T19:58:18Z")
Shit, I was halfway through before I noticed! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/127 "2017-10-02T20:49:27Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > Ideally we’d vote for a man that was Pro-Life for 70 of his 70 years, but given out choices are one that’s currently Pro-Life and one that’s currently Pro-Choice the choice is obvious. We know he’s a pussy grabber but our view is all politicians are scumbags and we’re not electing the Pope, so we go for the scumbag that supports our policy positions, whatever personal shortcomings the other side brings up are irrelevant. If this sort of single-voter logic is what church encourages, is it any wonder opinions about the church are so unfavorable? You are essentially saying you have no problem electing a rapist as President just long as he pays lip service to an issue your religion is overly fixated on. Gee, I wonder if Trump was counting on such laxity in critical thinking when he decided to add that to his platform. It’s almost as if he thought to himself “what can I possibly say that will cause a bunch of people to vote for me in spite of my gaping flaws and inexperience? Oh I know…abortion bad!” And you and millions of others fell for that. Unless, I suppose, you suspected all along it was just lip service. I mean, by your own words, you consider Trump a “pussy grabber”. So it should’ve occurred to you it’s quite possible his lifestyle and infidelity has personally contributed to the abortion of more fetuses than a seasoned Planned Parenthood doc. Given this, you would have to know it is unlikely a man of such character would have the moral conviction to fight abortion. Right? Or do you not know this? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/128 "2017-10-02T21:35:40Z")
**Budget Player Cadet** , you were wondering what “moral relativism” means? That’s it right there: Voting for a person like Trump, just because he’s currently pretending to be opposed to abortion. Which also, incidentally, provides a clear lesson in just why moral relativism is bad. What it does not provide, unfortunately, is any insight into why those who decry it most loudly are precisely the ones who engage in it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/129 "2017-10-02T22:25:07Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You are essentially saying you have no problem electing a rapist as President just long as he pays lip service to an issue your religion is overly fixated on. > [@Chronos](#): > > **Budget Player Cadet** , you were wondering what “moral relativism” means? That’s it right there: Voting for a person like Trump, just because he’s currently pretending to be opposed to abortion. Just for the sake of clarity: is there anything that could happen – over the course of Trump’s presidency – that would get the two of you reconsidering, such that Trump would’ve done more than (a) “lip service” and “pretending”, and more than (b) Hillary Clinton would’ve? Any amount of legislation on abortion he could _actually_ sign into law; any number of court picks who _actually_ rule for X instead of Y; anything? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/130 "2017-10-02T22:37:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Just for the sake of clarity: is there anything that could happen – over the course of Trump’s presidency – that would get the two of you reconsidering, such that Trump would’ve done more than (a) “lip service” and “pretending”, and more than (b) Hillary Clinton would’ve? Any amount of legislation on abortion he could _actually_ sign into law; any number of court picks who _actually_ rule for X instead of Y; anything? I think you may be missing the point - the issue is not that the devil will fail to carry out his end of the deal - the problem is that _they made a deal with the devil_. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/131 "2017-10-02T22:37:33Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > All right, but you’d better _never_ complain about things like moral relativism or the christian right wing being labeled hypocritical again. You’d better _own_ that shit. Give Trump credit. He’s pro-family. He’s had three of them. \ And who knows how many between?\ ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/132 "2017-10-02T23:14:35Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > You are essentially saying you have no problem electing a rapist as President just long as he **pays lip service** to an issue your religion is overly fixated on. > > … > > Budget Player Cadet, you were wondering what “moral relativism” means? That’s it right there: Voting for a person like Trump, just because he’s currently **pretending** to be opposed to abortion. > > [emphasis added] > > Just for the sake of clarity: is there anything that could happen – over the course of Trump’s presidency – that would get the two of you reconsidering, such that Trump would’ve done more than (a) “lip service” and “pretending”, and more than (b) Hillary Clinton would’ve? Any amount of legislation on abortion he could _actually_ sign into law; any number of court picks who _actually_ rule for X instead of Y; anything? 😕 It almost sounds like you think Trump might have some moral compass other than personal greed, or worship some Holy Trinity other than Me, Myself and I. He could appoint Billy Graham or Martin Shkreli to the Supreme Court and it would just be political opportunism rather than a reflection of his “religion.” Sincere question @ **The Other Waldo Pepper** : Do you not realize this? Your comment almost sounds like you’re arguing differently. This is the man who flip-flopped from Pro-Choice to calling for rape victims to be punished if they abort, a stance that even the devout Christians who murder surgeons don’t take. This is the man who appeals to his base by saying he’d like to F\*ck his own daughter. He based his decision to pardon Joe Arpaio on the cheers the suggestion got from his racist fans at a rally. **Bruiser1036** declines to answer my questions; how about you Mr. Pepper? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/133 "2017-10-02T23:28:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 It almost sounds like you think Trump might have some moral compass other than personal greed, or worship some Holy Trinity other than Me, Myself and I. He could appoint Billy Graham or Martin Shkreli to the Supreme Court and it would just be political opportunism rather than a reflection of his “religion.” Sincere question @ **The Other Waldo Pepper** : Do you not realize this? Your comment almost sounds like you’re arguing differently. > > This is the man who flip-flopped from Pro-Choice to calling for rape victims to be punished if they abort, a stance that even the devout Christians who murder surgeons don’t take. This is the man who appeals to his base by saying he’d like to F\*ck his own daughter. He based his decision to pardon Joe Arpaio on the cheers the suggestion got from his racist fans at a rally. > > **Bruiser1036** declines to answer my questions; how about you Mr. Pepper? Uh, sure: I think there was effectively zero chance of Hillary doing anything other than pro-choice stuff in office, and I think with Trump there’s – a nonzero chance? Maybe fifty-fifty? Maybe sixty-forty? Maybe eighty-twenty? Damifino. And, granted, _whatever_ it is, it’s a safe bet that it’s the mere product of Trump’s greed; but, to paraphrase Trump, what did they have to lose? If they’re single-issue voters, and the other candidate is “nothing”, I figure they’d go with “something” – and I figure they’d pat themselves on the back every time he does “something” for them. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/134 "2017-10-03T00:03:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Any amount of legislation on abortion he could _actually_ sign into law; any number of court picks who _actually_ rule for X instead of Y; anything? This is true and it’s not my intent to imply Trump can’t or won’t curtail abortion via his appointees. The same could be said for any Republican president, though. So picking Trump in the general election might be somewhat defensible if abortion is your only issue of concern (which is not a rational viewpoint at all, but whatever), but what’s the Christian defense for voting for him in the primary? Many among the faithful–including [Jerry Falwell](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/01/26/evangelical-leader-jerry-falwell-jr-endorses-trump/)–publicly supported an adultering, twice-divorced trafficker in obscenities even though life-long pro-lifers of the non-pussy grabbing variety were pleading to be elected. My point is that Christians who justify their actions using the single-issue voter defense got some 'splaining to do. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/135 "2017-10-03T00:17:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Which Bible? If we’ve got a choice of Bibles, I want to at least consider this one: > [@Firefly](#): > > Saffron: I do know my Bible sir. “On the night of their betrothal, the wife shall open to the man as the furrow to the plow and he shall work in her, in and again, 'til she bring him to his fall and rest him then upon the sweat of her breast.” > > Mal: Whoa, good Bible. Like I said earlier on, I’ve known the Lord for 47 years, and I had some pretty decent Bible education even before that. And I’m 100% sure that the passage Saffron quotes isn’t in the Bible I’m familiar with. So I’d kinda like to at least check out _her_ Bible to see if I like it better, y’know? It sounds like it’s got _potential_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/136 "2017-10-03T01:29:48Z")
Of course, it all started to go to hell when the Senate was mean to Robert Bork. ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/137 "2017-10-03T02:46:39Z")
If you’re a single issue voter voting for Trump in the primary is defensible if the other choices have no chance of getting elected. Cruz did not based on being another boring traditional candidate. Kasich did not based on how badly he tanked. Better to support Trump who might be just Pro-Life as a matter of pandering but who actually had a shot at being elected and able to do something, than to support a lifelong Pro-Lifer and cause distracting bickering in the Republican convention. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/138 "2017-10-03T06:26:21Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > If you’re a single issue voter voting for Trump in the primary is defensible if the other choices have no chance of getting elected. Piffle. Nobody actually knew in early 2016 whether any other Republicans had “no chance of getting elected”. In fact, in March 2016 Cruz and Rubio [both polled better against Clinton than Trump did](https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/how-trump-rubio-cruz-would-fare-against-clinton-november-n534191). Republican primary voters supported Trump because they wanted to. If they thought another candidate would be preferable, they were free to vote for that candidate. Most of them didn’t. They don’t get a pass on pretending after the fact that they had no other viable choice. In fact, I suspect that a lot of Trump voters are now exaggerating the extent to which they were “single-issue voters”, as well as their perceived absence of electoral alternatives, precisely in order to distance themselves from their deliberate choice to support Trump. If they can make some kind of argument that they **had** to vote Trump because they had no other option, they hope they won’t look quite so irresponsible and stupid. Too bad. The label “Trump voter” is going to stick to them for a looooong while. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/139 "2017-10-03T12:17:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In fact, I suspect that a lot of Trump voters are now exaggerating the extent to which they were “single-issue voters”, as well as their perceived absence of electoral alternatives, precisely in order to distance themselves from their deliberate choice to support Trump. If they can make some kind of argument that they **had** to vote Trump because they had no other option, they hope they won’t look quite so irresponsible and stupid. To add, another fiction being offered to excuse their ill-conceived choice is that abortion was what led many Christian single-issue voters to back Trump. According to [this](https://divinity.uchicago.edu/sightings/myths-debunked-why-did-white-evangelical-christians-vote-trump) cite, only 14% of white evangelicals identified as their topmost voting issue either Supreme Court nominees or abortion. A greater proportion (15%) actually rated “Personal character of the candidate” higher than abortion-related concerns. Religion gives Trump voters some amount of cover to hide behind. If someone can say that it was a moral issue that led them to vote a certain way–particularly if that issue conveniently was not espoused by the other candidate–then they can don’t have to account for much. It’s an easy excuse, no complicated argumentation required to defend it, very black and white. In contrast, saying that you voted for Trump because you saw him as smart, capable, strategic, or whatever leaves your judgement up for debate. Most sane people can now see that he is none of these things. It’s a much harder position to defend. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/140 "2017-10-03T14:05:45Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > Ideally we’d vote for a man that was Pro-Life for 70 of his 70 years, but given out choices are one that’s currently Pro-Life and one that’s currently Pro-Choice the choice is obvious. We know he’s a pussy grabber but our view is all politicians are scumbags and we’re not electing the Pope, so we go for the scumbag that supports our policy positions, whatever personal shortcomings the other side brings up are irrelevant. Let me see if I understand this. You want to base your voting decision around a _ **Moral Choice** _. OK. One particular moral choice. - You’re presented with two candidates - a woman who has foibles, as most of us do, but has dedicated much of her life to helping disadvantaged people. (You’ve never even read Hillary’s biography, have you?); and - an amoral man who is probably the most despicable beast to ever be a serious candidate for President. - You choose … the _ **Least Moral** _ of the two, the despicable beast, an obviously-nonreligious man who every day surprises us with the depths of his ignorance, hypocrisy, pettiness and disloyalty. - Why? Because today he pays lip service to punishing women who have abortions. - And why do you think Clinton is just as immoral as the obviously despicable beast? Because you read on Facebook: _Hillary Killary Pee The witch hates BenGhazee The witch fell down Her shit was brown Hillary Killary Pee_ Brilliant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699.md?page=8)