# Pew Poll: 44 Percent of Liberal Democrats Say Churches Bad for America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699 "2017-10-01T03:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/161 "2017-10-04T19:07:20Z")
Since the OP is specifically insisting the Baptists are the ones who have it right, and anyone else is either deluded or hates God or words to that effect, s/he might be interested in taking note of the growing number of [Baptist congregations who have renamed themselves](http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_namechange.html) to eliminate the word. To their credit, they have realized how much that name has come to stand for many hateful and downright anti-Christian views, and wish not to be associated with it. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/162 "2017-10-04T19:23:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Since the OP is specifically insisting the Baptists are the ones who have it right, and anyone else is either deluded or hates God or words to that effect, s/he might be interested in taking note of the growing number of [Baptist congregations who have renamed themselves](http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_namechange.html) to eliminate the word. To their credit, they have realized how much that name has come to stand for many hateful and downright anti-Christian views, and wish not to be associated with it. Fascinating! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/163 "2017-10-04T20:10:00Z")
I genuinely like and appreciate some people I would label as “evangelicals”, in the original sense of “good news”. Positive, upbeat, drawing energy from the eternal dynamo, what’s not to like? Fundamentalists draw from the stern and patriarchal side of religion, God as law-giver and Smiter in Chief. A tyrant should not be obeyed, even if He is immortal. When told to go sacrifice his son, Abraham should have said “Fuck Thou!”. I have no use for any system of thought that closes off thought. Boiled down, I am a religious person who does not believe in God. And if that confuses you, you are not alone. And so it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/164 "2017-10-04T21:29:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > This country has never at any point run on Christian principles. Then please explain why one of Congress’ first acts was to pass laws providing for military chaplains (exclusively Christian ones) and chaplains for the House and Senate. Please explain why so many of our early presidents proclaimed national days of prayer. Please explain why Congress allowed the Capitol to be used for church services on Sundays. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/165 "2017-10-04T21:39:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes. Which of the two candidates would you say better represented Jesus’ teachings in general? Which one would you really expect to follow through on promises to do more of it once in office? > > If you could still answer Trump, then your reasons weren’t really what you’re telling us they were. I don’t know who you were responding to, but you seem to regard this as some sort of “gotcha.” It isn’t. Jesus called out the religious hypocrites of His day (the Pharisees). He called them some pretty harsh names. In the last election, Clinton was the religious hypocrite. She claims to be a Christian, and yet she lies reflexively at virtually everything that comes up. She lies even when the truth would serve her interests better. So no matter how much you try to spin this issue, the least-worse choice still comes out to be Trump every time. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/166 "2017-10-04T21:45:45Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I don’t know who you were responding to, but you seem to regard this as some sort of “gotcha.” It isn’t. > > Jesus called out the religious hypocrites of His day (the Pharisees). He called them some pretty harsh names. In the last election, Clinton was the religious hypocrite. She claims to be a Christian, and yet she lies reflexively at virtually everything that comes up. She lies even when the truth would serve her interests better. So no matter how much you try to spin this issue, the least-worse choice still comes out to be Trump every time. He leaves Clinton in the dust when it comes to lying. He’s a multiple adulterer and proud of it. He rips off small businesses. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/167 "2017-10-04T21:55:27Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > In the last election, Clinton was the religious hypocrite. She claims to be a Christian, and yet she lies reflexively at virtually everything that comes up. She lies even when the truth would serve her interests better. So no matter how much you try to spin this issue, the least-worse choice still comes out to be Trump every time. It’s posts like this that make me congratulate myself on my decision to not even try to argue with Trumpies. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/168 "2017-10-04T22:03:11Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I don’t know who you were responding to, but you seem to regard this as some sort of “gotcha.” It isn’t. > > Jesus called out the religious hypocrites of His day (the Pharisees). He called them some pretty harsh names. In the last election, Clinton was the religious hypocrite. She claims to be a Christian, and yet she lies reflexively at virtually everything that comes up. She lies even when the truth would serve her interests better. So no matter how much you try to spin this issue, the least-worse choice still comes out to be Trump every time. I dispute your facts. Hey, what else is there to say? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/169 "2017-10-05T03:08:11Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I don’t know who you were responding to, but you seem to regard this as some sort of “gotcha.” It isn’t. > > Jesus called out the religious hypocrites of His day (the Pharisees). He called them some pretty harsh names. In the last election, Clinton was the religious hypocrite. She claims to be a Christian, and yet she lies reflexively at virtually everything that comes up. She lies even when the truth would serve her interests better. So no matter how much you try to spin this issue, the least-worse choice still comes out to be Trump every time. Do you think Trump lies more or less often than Clinton? How would you propose we go about testing this? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/170 "2017-10-05T03:36:24Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Do you think Trump lies more or less often than Clinton? How would you propose we go about testing this? [Politifact: Trump Vs. Clinton](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/lists/people/comparing-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-truth-o-met/) ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/171 "2017-10-05T03:40:10Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > In the last election, Clinton was the religious hypocrite. She claims to be a Christian, and yet she lies reflexively at virtually everything that comes up. It sounds like you missed this detail, but Trump was the big orange guy who lied all the time. Clinton was the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/172 "2017-10-05T03:58:35Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Politifact: Trump Vs. Clinton](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/lists/people/comparing-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-truth-o-met/) I personally would not endorse this method, no matter how flattering. There’s far too much room for sampling bias. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/173 "2017-10-05T04:14:12Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I personally would not endorse this method, no matter how flattering. There’s far too much room for sampling bias. What do you suggest? You would have to dig up every statement made by both and research the truth or untruth of each. [Which is what Politifact has done.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/nov/01/principles-politifact-punditfact-and-truth-o-meter/) > [@](#): > > **Choosing claims to check** > > Every day, PolitiFact and PunditFact staffers look for statements that can be checked. We comb through speeches, news stories, press releases, campaign brochures, TV ads, Facebook postings and transcripts of TV and radio interviews. Because we can’t possibly check all claims, we select the most newsworthy and significant ones. > > In deciding which statements to check, we ask ourselves these questions: > > ``` > Is the statement rooted in a fact that is verifiable? We don’t check opinions, and we recognize that in the world of speechmaking and political rhetoric, there is license for hyperbole. > > Is the statement leaving a particular impression that may be misleading? > > Is the statement significant? We avoid minor "gotchas" on claims that obviously represent a slip of the tongue. > > Is the statement likely to be passed on and repeated by others? > > Would a typical person hear or read the statement and wonder: Is that true? > > ``` > > **Transparency and on-the-record sources** > > \*\*PolitiFact and PunditFact rely on on-the-record interviews and publish a list of sources with every Truth-O-Meter item. \*\*When possible, the list includes links to sources that are freely available, although some sources rely on paid subscriptions. The goal is to help readers judge for themselves whether they agree with the ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/174 "2017-10-05T04:31:54Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What do you suggest? You would have to dig up every statement made by both and research the truth or untruth of each. > [Which is what Politifact has done.](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/nov/01/principles-politifact-punditfact-and-truth-o-meter/) The best we’re going to get is a heuristic, short of going through _every_ statement made by them - something Politifact _didn’t_ do and never has done. Their statements are selective. I agree that Trump lies more often than Clinton. I just don’t think linking to Politifact is going to be very convincing to people who think the opposite. That’s why I’m asking **Flyer** what test he would come up with. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/175 "2017-10-05T04:55:20Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The best we’re going to get is a heuristic, short of going through _every_ statement made by them - something Politifact _didn’t_ do and never has done. Their statements are selective. I agree that Trump lies more often than Clinton. I just don’t think linking to Politifact is going to be very convincing to people who think the opposite. That’s why I’m asking **Flyer** what test he would come up with. _Nothing_ will convince people who believe the opposite. It’s only selective in that they stick to substantive statements. Do you really think asking Trump if he washed his hands after peeing is something important? Considering that Obama got “Lie Of The Year” in 2013 and there’s plenty of confirmed lies on the Democrat side, I doubt anyone could show substantial bias. If that was possible, it would have been done beyond _claiming_ there’s bias. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/176 "2017-10-05T11:58:00Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > In the last election, Clinton was the religious hypocrite. She claims to be a Christian, and yet she lies reflexively at virtually everything that comes up. She lies even when the truth would serve her interests better. So no matter how much you try to spin this issue, the least-worse choice still comes out to be Trump every time. Wow. On what facts do you base that assessment, dare I ask? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/177 "2017-10-05T12:02:18Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > _Nothing_ will convince people who believe the opposite. Well we can at least _try_. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/178 "2017-10-05T13:15:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Wow. On what facts do you base that assessment, dare I ask? Facts? He don’t need no stinkin’ _facts_. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/179 "2017-10-05T15:16:17Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I think your post was half-joking, but the arrow of causality goes the other way. The God that people believe in always hates the same people they do. Was it only half? But yes, you have grasped the underlying point: that people are projecting their own views onto what they think God wants, and then using that assertion of what God wants to justify the views they already hold - with a bonus prize of characterizing their God as kind of an asshole. Winning! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699/180 "2017-10-05T15:36:28Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Facts? He don’t need no stinkin’ _facts_. I’d really like to know how \*\*Flyer \*\*reached that conclusion. I would especially like him/her to say what did it, if it wasn’t facts and analysis, and if so why was the chosen approach superior. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pew-poll-44-percent-of-liberal-democrats-say-churches-bad-for-america/797699.md?page=10)