# PG&E cuts electricity to 24,000 customers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742 "2019-09-24T05:39:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/41 "2019-09-25T21:19:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Actually my power is coming from a third party, through PG&E lines, and is mostly renewable. For less. I can be 100% renewable if I wanted to pay a bit more. > Only the government could force PG&E to do this. > > Or do you want multiple power lines coming into each house? Ever heard of a natural monopoly? > **[The Myth of Natural Monopoly | Mises Institute](https://mises.org/review-austrian-economics/myth-natural-monopoly)** > > Intervention-minded economists, used their newly-minted "monopoly theory" as an ex post rationale for government intervention in the marketplace. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/42 "2019-09-25T23:17:56Z")
Most solar panels simply generate DC electrical current. Then you need an inverter to change it to AC, and transform it to 120 volts. Not too difficult. But you also need it to be at 60 cycles/second (Hz), AND to be synchronized with the 50 Hz of the grid\*. That takes lot more complex (expensive) circuitry to do, apparently. So most solar panels don’t have that – they just sync up with the grid, so if the grid is down, they can’t generte at 60Hz at all – they just shut down. - This is true of all electrical sources on the grid. Every time they start up a new generator in the line of them at Boulder Dam, or at coal-fired electric plant, or wherever, the operators have to ‘lock sync’ it with the 60 Hz of the grid. This can take some work on their part. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/43 "2019-09-26T03:44:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not sure actually. But I had a discussion with the installer about it and they said it was a requirement that it was done that way. Perhaps if you tinker it can be done, but the way it works in most setups is homes with solar typically always pull from the grid, and all generation goes back to the grid, and then the energy generated is netted against the energy used. Your house doesn’t get powered directly from the panels. Regulations are moving now towards a preference for on-site storage for home solar instead of net-metering. (As opposed to utility-scale solar farms which output directly to the grid.) Those battery systems do require an automated transfer switch to protect the grid. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/44 "2019-09-26T03:48:07Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Regulations are moving now towards a preference for on-site storage for home solar instead of net-metering. (As opposed to utility-scale solar farms which output directly to the grid.) Those battery systems do require an automated transfer switch to protect the grid. I’m not sure if CA regulations are moving that way,[but I am familiar with on site storage.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=831987) I do it 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/45 "2019-10-03T17:35:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > _This_ is the problem: too many looters. Our country is being looted and left to rot. Too many politicians and too many businesspeople are acting without a care for the society they live in. “I’ve got mine; fuck 'em” is not going to help our society. > > Anyone who uses the term “social justice warrior” in earnest is, IMO, likely a selfish jackass who doesn’t understand the issues, doesn’t understand the consequences and doesn’t deserve a whole lot of consideration. This. These utilities have legal monopolies over large areas. They make big profits, and funnel tons of money to their “top guys” in pay, benefits, and lavish offices. When it’s hot or cold they want to jack up the rates. When the Saudis fuck us again, they want to jack up the rates. When they have a big conservation campaign and we fall for it, they cry about lost revenue and jack up the rates. it’s theft on a grand scale. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/46 "2019-10-03T17:36:56Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I find, speaking for myself, that I am considerably more irritated at PG&E given their apparent habit of neglecting to do the work they are hired to do, waiting until something catastrophic happens, declaring bankruptcy, failing to fix issues or set out a plan to address them, and then announce they’re just gonna shut things down. > > How many do overs does this group get? … and this. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/47 "2019-10-03T17:43:59Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Odd trivia - if you have solar in CA and you are normally connected to the grid, if power goes out you will still lose power. When power is out, utilities require a cutoff so you can’t feed power back into the grid. It makes sense since utility workers going to work on lines wouldn’t want solar generated power to be live in those transmission lines.f > > Now, if you have a backup generator, or batteries, you’re fine. You’ll have to have a cutoff switch so you don’t feed back into the grid though. That no-power always seemed stupid to me… All you would have to do is wire in a current sensing unit and relay, just like you have in emergency lighting boxes. OR a switch. When the power goes down, you disconnect from the utility and hook up to your own batteries and charging system. When the power comes back up, you toggle back onto the grid. But the way solar is promoted and very poorly “explained” out here in Cali, it always sounded too much like “if it’s too good to be true, then it probably is” Buyer beware. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/48 "2019-10-04T03:53:28Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > That no-power always seemed stupid to me… All you would have to do is wire in a current sensing unit and relay, just like you have in emergency lighting boxes. OR a switch. > > When the power goes down, you disconnect from the utility and hook up to your own batteries and charging system. When the power comes back up, you toggle back onto the grid. Such switches are readily available – anybody who installs an emergency generator at their home or farm will have one installed by their electrician. They can be either manual cutovers, or automated ones. (But this requires that your solar system produce 120V, 60Hz AC current on its own. Most simple (cheap) solar systems don’t.) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/49 "2019-10-06T22:23:19Z")
In Los Angeles too? IIRC LADWP exclusively serves the city, plus mich of the Owens Valley. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/50 "2019-10-09T14:30:34Z")
> **[The Latest: PG&E cuts power in San Francisco Bay Area](https://apnews.com/domestic-news-domestic-news-general-news-weather-a1816e7e270945979dfb0e0d65fb9722)** > > Pacific Gas & Electric has begun shutting off power to the San Francisco Bay area, adding more than 200,000 customers to a sweeping blackout that already has left a million people in the dark. > [@](#): > > 12:00 a.m. > > Millions of people in northern and central California are facing days without power as Pacific Gas & Electric creates the largest preventive blackout in state history. > > The utility says it will start to shut down power at midnight Wednesday to customers to reduce the chance of fierce winds knocking trees into power lines or downing equipment and sparking wildfires. > > People preparing for the outages emptied shelves of bottled water and batteries, and there were lines at gas pumps. > > PG&E planned to shut off power to 800,000 home and businesses in 34 counties through Thursday. But the utility warned it could take up to five days to restore power because the lines must be inspected to make sure they’re safe. > [@](#): > > To the south, Southern California Edison said more than 106,000 of its customers in parts of eight counties could face power cuts as early as Thursday as Santa Ana winds loomed. a few hours later: > [@](#): > > 6:30 a.m. > > Pacific Gas and Electric has shut off power to more than half a million customers in Northern California in the biggest planned shut off in the state’s history. > > The utility said Wednesday it will gradually turn off electricity to nearly 800,000 customers to prevent its equipment from starting wildfires during hot, windy weather. > > It says a second group of about 234,000 customers will lose power starting at noon. > > The utility says it’s considering turning off power to another 42,000 customers in areas it serves near Southern California. It says it will determine a time and the specific locations later Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/51 "2019-10-09T14:51:30Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I’m sure that customers will gladly and quietly pay the higer prices needed to pay for the $30 billion in upgrades that would be needed to make the lines safe. > > No–wait–they would scream bloody murder and demand that the government force the companies to keep the same prices. > > You get what you pay for. Is that $30 billion in upgrades figure accurate? If so, then it’s not really much of a mystery why they haven’t done it, and it has nothing to do with the vast CEO pay (which a quick Google search says is $8 million a year). PG&E’s total profit for was $4.38 billion for 2018. Even leaving aside law suits, and if they poured 100% of their profits into upgrades, something they couldn’t do, it would take them nearly 10 years to pay for it…and, on the flip side, they would probably be making…well, the same amount. Maybe their maintenance costs would lower, a bit, with a new infrastructure, but it’s not going to really change their business model much if any. The state MAY allow them to increase the price for energy, but Californian’s already pay very high prices for energy…higher than most other states in the US in fact, so there is limited scale on that front. PG&E would almost certainly have to raise rates substantially to pay for such upgrades, if that’s really what they would cost. I saw this on the news earlier, and was reading through some of the issues from a bit more balanced a source than the OP, and, as usually, the real issue is more complex than ‘we sent a man to the moon and now we can’t have nice things!’ or ‘evil CEOs are making too much!!’. I don’t say that PG&E is blameless…from what I’ve heard, they are about the slimiest power company in the state, if not the country, and have been seriously mismanaged. But the flip side of that is that, like most large power companies, they are a state sponsored monopoly, regulated and to an extent controlled by their states political process. As a last point, at least from what I read, this was actually a very prudent course as conditions in that part of California are pretty dicey right now, and this was probably the best move they could make. Yeah, it sucks for those affected…millions of houses. But it would suck more if they had another fire in that area right now with those conditions, so anything that might mitigate that has to be seriously considered. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/52 "2019-10-09T15:27:38Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Is that $30 billion in upgrades figure accurate? If so, then it’s not really much of a mystery why they haven’t done it, and it has nothing to do with the vast CEO pay (which a quick Google search says is $8 million a year). PG&E’s total profit for was $4.38 billion for 2018. Even leaving aside law suits, and if they poured 100% of their profits into upgrades, something they couldn’t do, it would take them nearly 10 years to pay for it…and, on the flip side, they would probably be making…well, the same amount. . Forgive me if I do not know how these things work, but wouldn’t they finance the work, then write off most of the cost on their taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/53 "2019-10-09T16:25:01Z")
> [@XT](#): > > As a last point, at least from what I read, this was actually a very prudent course as conditions in that part of California are pretty dicey right now, and this was probably the best move they could make. Yeah, it sucks for those affected…millions of houses. But it would suck more if they had another fire in that area right now with those conditions, so anything that might mitigate that has to be seriously considered. Possibly so. However it ironically also contains potential seeds for a reverse disaster. Water companies are scrambling to rent enough generators to power pumping stations in higher elevations. Meanwhile hordes of DIY’ers are preparing to power up personal generators. If this outage lasts the expected ~5 day period( shutdown Wednesday and Thursday, then a few days to painstakingly restore power to all affected ), all it could take is an improperly installed/serviced generator sparking to create a fire. And if the darkened water utilities then also struggle getting enough water to the neighborhood fire hydrants it might get very messy. This is of course setting aside all the ancillary issues of necessary home medical devices and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/54 "2019-10-09T16:27:02Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Is that $30 billion in upgrades figure accurate? If so, then it’s not really much of a mystery why they haven’t done it, and it has nothing to do with the vast CEO pay (which a quick Google search says is $8 million a year). PG&E’s total profit for was $4.38 billion for 2018. No one (well hardly anyone) is suggesting that they do all of that maintenance immediately. The contention AIUI is that they cheaped out on maintenance over the last X years (presumably to pay the C-suite and keep the stock price up), leading to the current crisis. So, as is the American capitalist way, they privatized the profits and will likely social the costs. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/55 "2019-10-09T16:48:17Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [The Latest: PG&E cuts power in San Francisco Bay Area | AP News](https://apnews.com/a1816e7e270945979dfb0e0d65fb9722a) few hours later: Sacramento Bee says it will 800,000 [https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article235910202.html](https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article235910202.html) > [@](#): > > A public safety power shutoff event by PG&E will black out nearly 800,000 customers across 34 Northern California counties starting Wednesday, the utility confirmed in a news release Tuesday afternoon. > [@](#): > > The utility said with certainty at a 7 p.m. news conference that about 500,000 customers across the north state would be plunged into an engineered blackout between midnight and 4 a.m. > [@](#): > > Blackouts are still planned for the balance of the original 30 counties clustered around the Central Valley and Central Coast before 4 a.m. Fortunately, my county will not be affected. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/56 "2019-10-09T17:01:14Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Sacramento Bee says it will 800,000 800,000 customers. According to my local rag, that means 800,000 _customer accounts_. PG&E has no real idea how many people live in your house, so the probable number is well over a million. How far over is difficult to estimate. ETA: To put that in perspective, PG&E claimed ~5.4 million customers in 2018 covering ~16 million people. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/57 "2019-10-09T17:34:12Z")
I’m in the affected area but have not yet lost power. Keeping my fingers crossed but it seems likely I’ll lose power sometime today. The strange thing is the weather here is quite mild. Wind speed is about 1 mph. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/58 "2019-10-09T18:19:41Z")
[Bloomberg says this could cost $2.4B and affect 2.4M people](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKH9Sd9x1MY) (:34 video with text and music, spoken audio at :21) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/59 "2019-10-09T19:08:13Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Forgive me if I do not know how these things work, but wouldn’t they finance the work, then write off most of the cost on their taxes? Writing things off just means deducting the cost from your taxable income, AKA “profit”. Sure, you don’t pay tax on that money, but that’s because you don’t have the money anymore. The company shareholders would much rather have the money and pay some tax on it, than not have it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/60 "2019-10-09T19:48:01Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > We put people on the moon _and brought them home again_ fifty years ago. We devised, built and operated multi-use spacefaring vehicles 40 years ago. > > But somehow, we have electrical distribution systems in operation that can’t safely operate in the SW US environment. Yeah, OK we actually DO know how to provide power AND avoid falling transmission lines from starting fires. It’s actually pretty simple: you put the transmission lines _underground_. Hey, it even protects them from any fires that DO occur! Why _don’t_ we do this? It costs money. Last I heard it still costs more to bury power lines than string them up on poles. Sometimes there are also issues with landowners and digging. So, because the US doesn’t want to spend money on better infrastructure we’re stuck with a system developed in, what, the 1920’s? Almost a century old. Sure, we can slap a little blame in the PG&E executives, but you can also slap a little on the residents/voters of the affected areas who will happily NIMBY reforms into vapor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742.md?page=4)