# PG&E cuts electricity to 24,000 customers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742 "2019-09-24T05:39:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/101 "2019-10-21T20:51:21Z")
We’re told to expect an 18-24 hour cutoff tonight, comencing in about 4 hours. Lows tonight are mid-40s F so we can tolerate one heatless night, but any longer and we’re outa here, maybe into well-lit Nevada. A generator dealer will arrive in an hour, trying to sell us one, but demand is high, so nothing will be installed before January. PG&E directors and managers should be tried, executed painfully, and their family wealth confiscated. That’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/102 "2019-10-21T20:58:14Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > We’re told to expect an 18-24 hour cutoff tonight, comencing in about 4 hours. Lows tonight are mid-40s F so we can tolerate one heatless night, but any longer and we’re outa here, maybe into well-lit Nevada. A generator dealer will arrive in an hour, trying to sell us one, but demand is high, so nothing will be installed before January. > > PG&E directors and managers should be tried, executed painfully, and their family wealth confiscated. That’s a start. Think of all the carbon footprints that you aren’t leaving. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/103 "2019-10-21T21:08:02Z")
Dude, you’re a dick. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/104 "2019-10-21T21:47:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Dude, you’re a dick. Hey now! Im not the one calling for torture over a problem the state is in part responsible for. But I can tell the misanthropes around here are glass half empty types. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/105 "2019-10-30T17:48:20Z")
Now there is even more stink to this affair. Southern California Edison equipment was responsible for the Woolsey fire which destroyed 1643 structures, killed three people, and forced the evacuation of more than 295000 people. Additionally, they and Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) are being investigated for charging customers during the time their power is shut off. So besides being thieves, they have money for parties and lavish offices and obscene pay to the top guys but no money to maintain equipment. I think i’s time to END this **government sanctioned** private **monopoly** of utilities and take them over. It isn’t working. Socialize them and ramp up the oversight. And maybe start locking people up for negligence and dereliction of duty. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/106 "2019-10-31T19:44:14Z")
Hubby and I traveled to California at the end of September. Drove from Auburn, CA (north of Sacramento) to San Diego. Beautiful drive. However, much of it was a tinderbox waiting to be lit. Irrigation is clearly allowing millions of people to live in places where they couldn’t otherwise; the downside is this constant threat of wildfires. Since telling people to leave isn’t a plausible solution, IMO burying the lines is the only solution. Our subdivision has buried lines, and it’s not only more beautiful, but we are rarely without power when the rest of the city is. Burying lines is going to cost a ton of money, tear up a lot of vegetation, and take a lot of time. But they need to come up with a Plan B. PG&E should invest its profits into making this happen. And customers should pony up some more, too. P.S. Oh, and speaking of those irrigation channels, they should eventually be enclosed, too. I cannot imagine what percentage of water is being lost to evaporation. Works now but won’t work forever. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/107 "2019-10-31T22:47:39Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Since telling people to leave isn’t a plausible solution, IMO burying the lines is the only solution. Our subdivision has buried lines, and it’s not only more beautiful, but we are rarely without power when the rest of the city is. > > Burying lines is going to cost a ton of money, tear up a lot of vegetation, and take a lot of time. But they need to come up with a Plan B. PG&E should invest its profits into making this happen. And customers should pony up some more, too. Yes, but buried transmission lines also cost more money every day they are in use, for the decades they will be used. Buried lines are less efficient than overhead lines (mainly due to capacitance effects, with some minor effect from overheating). This results in higher transmission loss – this is electricity wasted in the transmission grid. This is already 10-15% wasted in the existing mainly-overhead transmission system; converting to buried transmission lines would waste 2-5% more electricity. When we are all making efforts to conserve energy, like replacing incandescent light bulbs & adding light timers, we ought to look twice at changes that will cause a 33% increase in transmission line wasted electricity. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/108 "2019-10-31T22:50:34Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Now there is even more stink to this affair. > > Southern California Edison equipment was responsible for the Woolsey fire which destroyed 1643 structures, killed three people, and forced the evacuation of more than 295000 people. > > Additionally, they and Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) are being investigated for charging customers during the time their power is shut off. > > So besides being thieves, they have money for parties and lavish offices and obscene pay to the top guys but no money to maintain equipment. > > I think i’s time to END this **government sanctioned** private **monopoly** of utilities and take them over. It isn’t working. Socialize them and ramp up the oversight. > > And maybe start locking people up for negligence and dereliction of duty. You think the current batch of workers and managers are useless? Have the state take it over and fill it with unionized government workers and you’ll need to prepare for real Armageddon. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/109 "2019-10-31T22:57:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You think the current batch of workers and managers are useless? Who said anything about the workers? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/110 "2019-10-31T23:15:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You think the current batch of workers and managers are useless? Have the state take it over and fill it with unionized government workers and you’ll need to prepare for real Armageddon. I grew up on a farm near a small town. Everyone got their electricity either from the rural co-op or the city municipal electricity. Both of those were effectively government workers, an they did a good job. (Both had crews that regularly trimmed trees, so they didn’t interfere with the power lines – something PG&E seems to have neglected.) And the electricity prices there were (and still are) cheaper than what I pay to the private electricity company in Minneapolis. Besides, isn’t this problem related to PG&E management, not their workers? The management decided not to do the needed maintenance work but instead spend the money elsewhere (management bonuses, profits for stockholders). If the workers had been assigned to do the maintenance, it would have been done. I haven’t heard complaints about the quality of their work, just that they weren’t assigned to do the work. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/111 "2019-10-31T23:56:51Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Yes, but buried transmission lines also cost more money every day they are in use, for the decades they will be used. > > Buried lines are less efficient than overhead lines (mainly due to capacitance effects, with some minor effect from overheating). This results in higher transmission loss – this is electricity wasted in the transmission grid. This is already 10-15% wasted in the existing mainly-overhead transmission system; converting to buried transmission lines would waste 2-5% more electricity. > > When we are all making efforts to conserve energy, like replacing incandescent light bulbs & adding light timers, we ought to look twice at changes that will cause a 33% increase in transmission line wasted electricity. Seems to me that the fires are costing more than burying them would. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/112 "2019-10-31T23:56:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You think the current batch of workers and managers are useless? Have the state take it over and fill it with unionized government workers and you’ll need to prepare for real Armageddon. Speaking as a unionized government worker… …it probably isn’t worth getting into it with you. Suffice it to say I think you have either an entirely exaggerated view of how useless government workers are or a hugely inflated view of how comparatively competent private employees are. I work in close contact with a gigantic multi-national corporation - they do not conspicuously cover themselves with glory. At any rate PG&E employees mostly are unionized and as a utility can effectively be considered _quasi-governmental_. The fault isn’t with the employees, it is largely with inadequate staffing and invested resources and the inappropriate pressures put on them by that inadequate staffing. And that all comes down to money. Which to be fair is _also_ a problem with fully government-owned utilities - we’re always under the gun in terms of funding, as there is a political cost to higher utility rates and taxes. But the profit motive adds a whole 'nother layer of complications. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/113 "2019-11-01T01:29:27Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Seems to me that the fires are costing more than burying them would. YMMV. Yeah, but the crucial point is that they’re not costing _PG&E_ more than burying the lines would. PG&E is offloading a lot of the cost of the fires on taxpayers (not just California taxpayers, but all American taxpayers). Burying the lines, on the other hand, would cut into the funds available for executive salaries and bonuses, lavish parties, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/114 "2019-11-01T03:45:06Z")
I stand corrected! That’s the third time this month. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/115 "2019-11-02T00:07:31Z")
[Gov. Newsom threatens possible PG&E takeover if no plan is made](https://apnews.com/b634417660534b02bf6a0ac4eff6caeb): > [@](#): > > California’s governor on Friday threatened a possible takeover of the troubled utility blamed for sparking deadly wildfires across the state with its outdated equipment unless it can emerge from bankruptcy ahead of next year’s wildfire season with a plan focused on safety. > > Gov. Gavin Newsom called all sides to a meeting early next week, saying he would personally try to mediate a solution involving Pacific Gas & Electric. > > But if an agreement can’t be reached, Newsom said, “then the state will prepare itself as backup for a scenario where we do that job for them.” > [@](#): > > “This is not the new normal,” Newsom said. “There are things that can be done immediately and will be done immediately.” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/116 "2020-03-23T21:06:56Z")
[PG&E to plead guilty to lethal crimes in 2018 wildfires.](https://apnews.com/b9a1b0ea20a2f76307cafcc6c64000bc) > [@](#): > > Pacific Gas & Electric will plead guilty to 84 counts of involuntary manslaughter for a swath of death and destruction left behind after its fraying electrical grid ignited a 2018 wildfire that decimated three Northern California towns and drove the nation’s largest utility into bankruptcy. > > The plea agreement announced Monday resolves the charges facing PG&E as part of a previously sealed indictment in Butte County. It marks the second time this decade that the company’s neglect has culminated in it being deemed a criminal. PG&E already is serving a five-year criminal probation imposed after it was convicted of six felony counts for falsifying records and other safety violations underlying a natural gas explosion that blew up a neighborhood and killed eight people in San Bruno, California. If I pled guilty to 84 counts of manslaughter while I was on probation for similar safety violations, I would never be allowed to work in that industry again AND I would serve many years in jail. But corporate people are different than people people, and so no one will serve any jail time and they’ll still be in the same business. Corporate personhood is a fucked up concept that the US should do away with. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/117 "2020-03-24T07:38:28Z")
Abolishing corporate personhood would just mean that each individual shareholder was personally liable for corporate debts. Like, if your retirement account owned shares in PG&E, PG&E having no corporate personhood would mean that your personal property would be sold to pay for PG&E’s debt. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/118 "2020-03-24T10:36:57Z")
Corporate personhood and limited liability are two separate concepts. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/119 "2020-03-24T10:39:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Abolishing corporate personhood would just mean that each individual shareholder was personally liable for corporate debts. Like, if your retirement account owned shares in PG&E, PG&E having no corporate personhood would mean that your personal property would be sold to pay for PG&E’s debt. Of course! That is entirely obvious. But perhaps you could explain the inevitability to some of our slower members. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/120 "2020-03-24T14:20:37Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Abolishing corporate personhood would just mean that each individual shareholder was personally liable for corporate debts. Like, if your retirement account owned shares in PG&E, PG&E having no corporate personhood would mean that your personal property would be sold to pay for PG&E’s debt. No; it wouldn’t necessarily mean that unless we said it meant that. There are more options available than you list. [For instance](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-the-usa-the-only-natio_b_1262525): > [@David Law](#): > > It is quite popular in other countries to have some kind of restriction in the constitution on property rights, how property can be used. Property rights have to be consistent with social welfare. You can’t use property in such a way that it harms society. If you think of a corporation as a bundle of property rights, those specific clauses provide a basis for regulating corporations. Corporations can exist, they just shouldn’t be considered to be people. They aren’t people; they are property. Granting them legal personhood was a stupid, short-sighted shortcut for legislators and the unforeseen repercussions are awful for society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742.md?page=7)