# PG&E cuts electricity to 24,000 customers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742 "2019-09-24T05:39:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/121 "2020-03-24T17:10:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Granting them legal personhood was a stupid, short-sighted shortcut for **legislators** and the unforeseen repercussions are awful for society. Actually, corporate personhood in the United States is more of a creation of the courts than of the legislature. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/122 "2020-03-24T17:32:57Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Actually, corporate personhood in the United States is more of a creation of the courts than of the legislature. How so? Courts passed the Dictionary Act? Courts signed it into law? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/123 "2020-03-24T18:03:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > How so? Courts passed the Dictionary Act? Courts signed it into law? :dubious: It was the court reporter’s interpretation of the SCotUS ruling on _[Santa Clara County v Southern Pacific RR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad_Co.)_ in 1886. The infamous headnote, authored by one J. C. Bancroft Davis, reads _ **One of the points made and discussed at length in the brief of counsel for defendants in error was that ‘corporations are persons within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.’ Before argument, Mr. Chief Justice Waite said: The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws, applies to these corporations. We are all of the opinion that it does.** _ It might be worth noting that the guy who wrote that had been president of the Newburgh and New York Railway Company, but he passed a memo to Chief Justice Morrison Waite who replied that it looked about right to him. It is upon the basis of Davis’ headnote that SCotUS rulings have borne forward with corporate personhood. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/124 "2020-03-24T18:13:43Z")
Wasn’t the Dictionary Act passed by the 41st Congress 15 or so years before Mr.Davis’ headnote was written? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/125 "2020-03-24T19:00:31Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > How so? Courts passed the Dictionary Act? Courts signed it into law? :dubious: Raise your eyebrow all you want, but if you think it was the Dictionary Act, by itself, that created the modern definition of corporate personhood, all that shows is that you haven’t read very broadly on the subject. The Dictionary Act was originally designed largely as a streamlining measure, with a desire “to avoid prolixity and tautology in drawing statutes and to prevent doubt and embarrassment in their construction.” The aim of the Congress itself was not really to give corporations the same legal protections as persons. The most important decisions related to corporate personhood in the United States, particularly regarding questions of rights, come out of 14th Amendment jurisprudence and the application of things like the due process and equal protection clauses, as well as the post-14th incorporation of (some of) the protections of the Bill of Rights for corporations against state actions. Plenty of (probably most) corporate personhood cases never mention the Dictionary Act at all. I’m not arguing that it’s completely irrelevant; only that the courts have done considerably more than the legislature to shore up corporate personhood over the last century or so. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/126 "2020-03-24T19:03:32Z")
Sure; but they could never have done that without the Dictionary Act existing in the first place, could they? I’m not going to excuse the folks who chose expedience over propriety. Nor do I excuse all the subsequent Congresses that could have changed it but chose not to. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/127 "2020-03-24T19:04:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Wasn’t the Dictionary Act passed by the 41st Congress 15 or so years before Mr.Davis’ headnote was written? It is kind of irrelevant. SCotUS interprets its rulings in the context of the Constitution, which takes precedence over acts of Congress. The law runs up against the courts, which interpret the full body of law and thus can determine the ultimate meaning of statutory law. SCotUS has interpreted the law with the _S.C.C.v.SPRR_ headnote in mind, granting civil rights to corporations. Any laws drafted must be considers relative to how SCotUS will rule on the matter, until such time as the big parchment is amended in a way that will clarify the question. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/128 "2020-03-24T19:07:26Z")
In what way do you think this aspect of the Dictionary Act is unconstitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/129 "2020-03-24T19:33:20Z")
OK, so if PG&E gets fined, and the fine is beyond the amount of available corporate assets, all of the shareholders have to pay that fine, in proportion to the number of shares that they hold. Why is this a problem? If you’re holding enough shares that that’s a significant hardship for you, then you have enough shares to have non-negligible voting power, and so it was partly your decisions that resulted in whatever action the fine was for. Why shouldn’t the shareholders be held accountable for their decisions? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/130 "2020-03-24T19:51:31Z")
Because socialism for the wealthy and capitalism for the rest of us, prolly. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/131 "2020-03-24T19:51:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so if PG&E gets fined, and the fine is beyond the amount of available corporate assets, all of the shareholders have to pay that fine, in proportion to the number of shares that they hold. Why is this a problem? Because it’s not legal. Corporate shareholders liability only extends to the value of their shares as it relates to obligations of the corporation. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/132 "2020-03-25T01:48:15Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > In what way do you think this aspect of the Dictionary Act is unconstitutional? I never suggested that the Act itself was unconstitutional. It defines “person”. That is unchanged. Essentially, interpretation of the 1886 ruling simply extends the constitutional protections enjoyed by individuals to include corporations. It does not affect the definition in the congressional Act, it just broadens it. By analogy, American citizens have all these rights under the Constitution, but the courts have generally ruled that those rights are not exclusive to citizens: visitors who are citizens of some other nation are protected in kind. In the same way, the courts seem to hold that the rights of persons are not exclusive to biological living humans but also extend to cover corporations. I am not saying this is proper or ideal or makes a whole lot of sense, but the courts are the arbiters of the law, as interpreted by its judges, and as it stands, until the Constitution is amended in a way that changes their interpretation, corporations will continue to enjoy the rights of persons. Of course, if the benches could be refilled with judges who can find ways to interpret the laws differently, amending the Constitution might be forestalled. At present, it looks like those important courts are being pushed in the opposite direction and will not change for the better in your or my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/133 "2020-06-16T20:36:51Z")
[PG&E confesses to killing 84 people in 2018 California fire](https://apnews.com/67810cb4d9b6b90e451415b76215d6c9); yet somehow no one is going to jail. > [@](#): > > Pacific Gas & Electric confessed Tuesday to killing 84 people in one of the most devastating wildfires in recent U.S. history during a dramatic court hearing punctuated by a promise from the company’s outgoing CEO that the nation’s largest utility will never again put profits ahead of safety. > > PG&E CEO Bill Johnson made the roughly 170-mile (275-kilometer) journey from the company’s San Francisco headquarters to a Butte County courthouse to plead guilty to 84 felony counts of involuntary manslaughter stemming from a November 2018 wildfire ignited by the utility’s crumbling electrical grid. The blaze nearly wiped out the entire town of Paradise and drove PG&E into bankruptcy early last year. > > Besides the mass deaths it caused, PG&E also pleaded guilty to one felony count of unlawfully starting a fire as part of an agreement with Butte County District Attorney Mike Ramsey. > > As Butte County Superior Court Judge Michael Deems read the names of each victim, Johnson acknowledged the horrific toll of PG&E’s history of neglect while solemnly staring at photos of each dead person shown on a screen set up in the courtroom. > > “No words from me could ever reduce the magnitude of that devastation or do anything to repair the damage,” Johnson said in a statement afterward. “I hope the actions taken today bring some measure of peace.” > > He also assured the judge that PG&E took responsibility for all the unnecessary devastation that it caused “with eyes wide open to what happened and to what must never happen again.” If a real person confessed to killing 84 people and to conspiring to things that brought about those deaths, they’d be in prison. But corporate people are different somehow… the same, but different. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/134 "2020-06-16T22:04:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If a real person confessed to killing 84 people and to conspiring to things that brought about those deaths, they’d be in prison. But corporate people are different somehow… the same, but different. Of course no “corporate people” will face any charges, much less do any time. This is America, where Business runs Government. Economic Totalitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742/135 "2020-06-23T07:19:35Z")
Right. Corporations are people when they want to argue that money is the same as free speech. They are not people when it comes to making disastrous decisions that kill people. PG&E would fall into the serial killer camp if it were considered a person. They’ve blown up entire neighborhoods and caused multiple fires with fatalities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pg-e-cuts-electricity-to-24-000-customers/840742.md?page=6)