# PGh-13: Pathetic Groaning homophobes who act like they're 13 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 27, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952 "2005-11-27T20:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/101 "2005-11-30T06:19:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And you have yet to offer a shred of evidence that it does not, in fact, indicate homophobia. Why else would they be groaning? I didn’t make the claim, he did. It’s up to him to prove it. > [@Miller](#): > > How are they different? > Why not? Because race and gender are not the same. > [@Miller](#): > > It can be proven to be harmful. Homosexuality cannot be proven to harmful. Therefore, it is rational to put a moral value on heroin use. It is irrational to put a moral value on homosexuality, positive or negative. Harm is not the only standard of morality. Also, I’m sure one could make an argument that homosexuality is harmful in a number of ways. I’m sure we’d both disagree with them, but that’s the problem with making absolute statements about morality. > [@Miller](#): > > Puting a negative value on it is a form of bigotry. People who groan at the sight of two men kissing have clearly put a negative value on the act. Therefore, the people who were groaning were homophobes. Prove it. How do you know these people were placing a negative value on homosexuality? This is circular logic. You are attempting to prove they are homophobes because they were groaning, while saying they were groaning because they’re homophobes. > [@Miller](#): > > Right. Those people are called homophobes. No, they are not. > [@Miller](#): > > Police brutality causes measurable harm to its victim. Homosexuality causes no harm to anyone, and has no victims. Therefore, police brutality is more abhorrent than homosexuality. I agree, but saying so isn’t proof. It’s like trying to prove rape is worse than murder. > [@Miller](#): > > Is there anything, short of actual violence, that you _would_ consider evidence of bigotry? Sure, but this incident doesn’t rise to that level. People like Fred Phelps are bigots, someone who groans in a movie theater may not be. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/102 "2005-11-30T06:21:21Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > My basic argument is, “you like what you like” and you “dislike what you dislike” and I think that’s just the way you are. I think a lot of that isn’t a choice. > > For example I have many white friends. Only one of them has ever dated a black man. Are all my other white friends racists? Is the fact that 95% of all couples I see uniracial indicative of the fact that most people are vile racists? That would be relevant if someone had accused people of being homophobes because they don’t want to kiss another guy themselves. Do any of your friends feel the need to emit an audible groan if they see a black guy kissing a white woman? If they do… they’re probably racists. > [@](#): > > I don’t think so. I think people have personal preferences. And one of those personal preferences may be, for example, preferring not to see homosexual love-acts. All I’m talking about here is what people like to see versus dislike to see. Again, that’s not what happened in the theater. People went into this movie, saw a relatively innocuous display of affection, and either were so disgusted that they couldn’t contain an audible response, or felt a desperate need to communicate to everyone around them that they were disgusted by that sight. I think that goes quite a bit further than simply “preferring not to see it.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/103 "2005-11-30T06:32:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That would be relevant if someone had accused people of being homophobes because they don’t want to kiss another guy themselves. Do any of your friends feel the need to emit an audible groan if they see a black guy kissing a white woman? If they do… they’re probably racists. I’m basically just restating myself here. Some people pick up a rock laying in a garden and find a slug under it and freak the fuck out because they’re disgusted. Some people, “oh a slug.” My point was I guess, since I now can’t just speak normally and have to overly state everything is, “If you don’t like what you see, more than likely you don’t have the ability to control that.” (By the way, when I said “you like what you like” I don’t see why that has to be constrained with actual physical acts, and couldn’t have obviously been inferred to cover things you like/dislike seeing as well as things you like/dislike _doing._) Why do some people like seeing violence on TV and some don’t? Why do some people start whooping when they see two people going at it and why do some people go ick? Why do some guys go ick when they see two guys kissing? I think some POSSIBLE answers to some of these questions may be that the person involved is prejudiced. I have just rejected, throughout this thread, that it’s a direct cause-effect relationship. I think it’s quite easy to be offput a bit by seeing two men kissing without being homophobic. I know it’s fun to label anyone who does something we don’t like a racist/homophobe/bigot et cetera, I just don’t feel that’s the wisest course of action. Have none of you ever been a bit turned off by seeing a specific type of sexual act? If I’m flipping through the channels and stumble on two men having anal sex and quickly turn it because I really don’t like what I’m seeing, that means I have supressed anti-homosexual feelings? I don’t see why we can’t just chalk a lot of this stuff up to personal preference. > [@](#): > > Again, that’s not what happened in the theater. People went into this movie, saw a relatively innocuous display of affection, and either were so disgusted that they couldn’t contain an audible response, or felt a desperate need to communicate to everyone around them that they were disgusted by that sight. I think that goes quite a bit further than simply “preferring not to see it.” I guess I could just say a few million more times that I’m not defending what the people in the theater said. But I think it’s obvious at this point no one understands that despite how many times I’ve already said it. I was just saying the only explanation for the actions of the people in the theater was not homophobia. To be honest if someone was highly homophobic they probably wouldn’t be at RENT in the first place, unless they went without ever seeing a single trailer for the movie, didn’t see the poster on the way in, and had never heard of the broadway production of the same name in any way, shape, or form. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/104 "2005-11-30T06:41:15Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I didn’t make the claim, he did. It’s up to him to prove it. And he did so. You have yet to offer a rebuttal more substantial than, “Is not!” What other reason would there be to groan at that scene besides homophobia? The only two I can think of are a) they really wanted one of the characters to hook up with someone else, or b) they were really, really into the kiss, and couldn’t control themselves. Of the three options, “they were homophobes” seems to be the most likely. > [@](#): > > Because race and gender are not the same. No, but prejudice against race and gender is. Can you offer any evidence to the contrary? > [@](#): > > Harm is not the only standard of morality. It’s the only objective standard. > [@](#): > > Also, I’m sure one could make an argument that homosexuality is harmful in a number of ways. I’m sure we’d both disagree with them, but that’s the problem with making absolute statements about morality. Really? So, if someone said, “murder is wrong,” or “Hitler was evil,” would you be making the same arguments? There may be no moral absolutes in a purely external sense, but each of us draws our own boundaries about what we consider to be moral, what we consider to be a gray area, and what we consider to be immoral. An expectation of general tolerance does not exempt one from the ability to make moral judgements. > [@](#): > > Prove it. How do you know these people were placing a negative value on homosexuality? This is circular logic. You are attempting to prove they are homophobes because they were groaning, while saying they were groaning because they’re homophobes. Why else would they be groaning, then? Generally, in the context described by **Sampiro** , a groan is an expression of disgust. What else would you call someone who is disgusted by homosexuality but a homophobe? > [@](#): > > No, they are not. What is this, a Monty Python sketch? What the hell else do you call them? > [@](#): > > I agree, but saying so isn’t proof. It’s like trying to prove rape is worse than murder. No, it’s like trying to prove that rape is worse than cheddar cheese. One act causes objectivly measurable harm to an unwilling person. The other causes no objectively measurable harm to a person who is consenting to the activity. They are not remotely comparable in any sense. > [@](#): > > Sure, but this incident doesn’t rise to that level. People like Fred Phelps are bigots, someone who groans in a movie theater may not be. So what’s your cut off point? What is the least harmful action a person can undertake, and still be a bigot? I’m honestly surprised you even include Phelps as a homophobe, because I can’t see any logical reasons behind any of your arguments, unless I assume that you are posting to this thread with ulterior motives. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/105 "2005-11-30T07:08:45Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Some people pick up a rock laying in a garden and find a slug under it and freak the fuck out because they’re disgusted. Some people, “oh a slug.” I’m one of the people who freak out. You know why? _BECAUSE I FUCKING HATE SLUGS!_ They’re one of the most loathsome, disgusting, hideous things on this planet, and I would not shed a tear if everyone of the slimy little monsters died of a salt-overdose. I am an unreasoning, genocidal slug-bigot, and proud of it. I’m not too fond of snails, either. > [@](#): > > My point was I guess, since I now can’t just speak normally and have to overly state everything is, “If you don’t like what you see, more than likely you don’t have the ability to control that.” (By the way, when I said “you like what you like” I don’t see why that has to be constrained with actual physical acts, and couldn’t have obviously been inferred to cover things you like/dislike seeing as well as things you like/dislike _doing._) I get your point. My point is that, if you have that reaction to two guys kissing, on some level you’re a homophobe. If you’re like **tdn** , you recognize that this reaction is inappropriate, and you control yourself. The people in this theater did not control themselves, so it is not beyond the pale to assume that they do not realize that their reaction to depictions of homosexuality are inappropriate. They are unrepentant, unreconstructed _homophobes_. > [@](#): > > Why do some people like seeing violence on TV and some don’t? Because they don’t like violence. > [@](#): > > Why do some people start whooping when they see two people going at it and why do some people go ick? Because they don’t like violence. > [@](#): > > Why do some guys go ick when they see two guys kissing? Because they don’t like… well, I’m pretty sure you can see where I’m going here, can’t you? > [@](#): > > I think some POSSIBLE answers to some of these questions may be that the person involved is prejudiced. I have just rejected, throughout this thread, that it’s a direct cause-effect relationship. I think it’s quite easy to be offput a bit by seeing two men kissing without being homophobic. I disagree. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it’s pretty much impossible. If you’re is really, truly, not even remotely a homophobe, two men kissing should have no emotional register for you at all. If it just makes you squirm a little or look away… that’s a homophobic reaction. An exceedingly minor one, to be sure. I certainly wouldn’t judge someone negatively for it. On the other hand, if the sight of two men kissing causes you to emit an audible groan of disgust, then you’ve got some fucking problems. No, I don’t think they’re going to run out and do some gay-bashing, but they still need to grow the fuck up and get over their idiot prejudices. > [@](#): > > I know it’s fun to label anyone who does something we don’t like a racist/homophobe/bigot et cetera… No, it’s not fun. It’s not fun at all. In fact, it really, really sucks. > [@](#): > > …I just don’t feel that’s the wisest course of action. Have none of you ever been a bit turned off by seeing a specific type of sexual act? If I’m flipping through the channels and stumble on two men having anal sex and quickly turn it because I really don’t like what I’m seeing, that means I have supressed anti-homosexual feelings? You don’t think there’s a difference between seeing a graphic sex act, and two people kissing with their mouths closed? > [@](#): > > I guess I could just say a few million more times that I’m not defending what the people in the theater said. But I think it’s obvious at this point no one understands that despite how many times I’ve already said it. Where did I accuse you of defending their behavior? We’re disagree about _why_ they behaved that way, is all. I think it’s a pretty blatant display of homophobia. I’m very much confused as to how someone could see it as anything else. > [@](#): > > I was just saying the only explanation for the actions of the people in the theater was not homophobia. But, here’s the thing: you haven’t offered any alternative explanations. Neither has **brickbacon**. All either of you have done is redacted the definition of homophobia until these people could plausibly fall outside of it. “They’re not homophobes, maybe they just don’t like looking at gay people!” Hello? You just defined homophobe! > [@](#): > > To be honest if someone was highly homophobic they probably wouldn’t be at RENT in the first place, unless they went without ever seeing a single trailer for the movie, didn’t see the poster on the way in, and had never heard of the broadway production of the same name in any way, shape, or form. I find that entirely plausible. At least, I find it much more plausible than the idea that someone would know what Rent was about, go to see it, and then get audibly disgusted by the gay stuff. While it’s obviously unprovable, I’m willing to bet that most of the groaners were there with their girlfriends, and had no interest in actually seeing the movie. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/106 "2005-11-30T07:39:22Z")
I’m comiing to this quite late, and I find myself agreeing with both sides. Maybe this will help: could we first agree on what the term “homophobia” means? From where I sit that seems to be a recurring stumbling block. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/107 "2005-11-30T08:14:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But, here’s the thing: you haven’t offered any alternative explanations. Neither has **brickbacon**. All either of you have done is redacted the definition of homophobia until these people could plausibly fall outside of it. “They’re not homophobes, maybe they just don’t like looking at gay people!” Hello? You just defined homophobe! Are we using “homophobe” in the literal sense of “irrational fear” or the considerably looser (to the point of uselessness) sense of “find distasteful?” More fundamentally, I think the problem is the implication that one _has_ to offer a definitive alternative explanation. Why is it any of our business? If – and this is a big if – the problem is with their _behavior_, then the motivations behind the behavior are well nigh irrelevant. Whether they were acting out of visceral reaction, out of enculturation by their fundamentalist upbringing, out of a literal homophobia, out of fear that their own latent homosexuality, or because they knew **Sampiro** was gay and deliberately wanted to piss him off should make no difference. It was their _actions_ that were unacceptable. And indeed, neither **Martin** nor I have said those actions were otherwise. But what Martin (I think) and I are objecting to is the sense that what is being judged here are not actions but _feelings_; that having a visceral reaction is itself wrong, even if nothing is ever said, even if the person males no effort to translate that visceral reaction into any sort of moral judgement. The person is bad and wrong because of something that had no control or choice over, any more than they could choose to stop liking dogs and prefer cats. We probably all agree that few if any people ever _choose_ to be gay or straight. You like what you like and that’s it, and those who would judge someone for that which they have no control over are asinine. Are we agreed on that? Why then, is it unacceptable for someone to be – silently, to himself, and with no judgementalism attached – weirded out by seeing two men kiss? How is judging someone for their personal taste in PDA any more sensible than judging someone for their dislike of cats … or indeed, for their sexual preference itself? Now it may be that someone dislikes cats because they reminds them of a hated aunt, or because of a traumatic childhood experience, or any number of other things… but the reason he doesn’t like something doesn’t make a difference to me. So long as he is tolerant and civilized towards me – i.e. he shuts up about it and doesn’t get in my way – it’s none of my damned business where he gets his tastes from. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/108 "2005-11-30T12:28:43Z")
Oh for godsakes, not the old “I’m losing the argument, so I’ll try and hijack this into the old, tired debate about how ‘homophobe’ isn’t the correct word because it implies fear of gays.” I think we all know what it means in our society. Trying to weasel out of explaining yourself to nitpick semantics just means you can’t defend your argument. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/109 "2005-11-30T14:55:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh for godsakes, not the old “I’m losing the argument, so I’ll try and hijack this into the old, tired debate about how ‘homophobe’ isn’t the correct word because it implies fear of gays.” > I think we all know what it means in our society. Trying to weasel out of explaining yourself to nitpick semantics just means you can’t defend your argument. Two people have asked questions about how anothr person is using a term; that is not “nitpick semantics.” If you have anything _constructive_ to contribute, please do so. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/110 "2005-11-30T15:08:47Z")
> [@Grelby](#): > > I am _quite aware_ that “the jury is out” on this question. Would you be happier if I said that there is no **convincing** evidence? The fact remains that none of the psychologists, anthropologists or sociologists who like to use biology to explain behavior can identify a pathway from DNA to “being grossed out by gay men kissing,” or, “doing well on the SATs,” nor do I see any reason to believe that such a direct path exists. And of course, I never claimed that there was. When I first addressed the hardwired question, it was in response to **featherlou** ’s implied claim that DNA finds no expression in gender differences. And she really didn’t even make that claim. Somehow morons such as yourself have glommed on to the idea that what I said was that DNA gives us an excuse to behave badly. This is either a blatant lie on your part, or complete reading uncomprehension on your part. Neither is smiled upon in this forum. But let’s quickly address what role inherited sexuality might play: It should be obvious to all but the lamest of fools, such as yourself, that human sexuality goes deep. Human sexuality predates humanity itself by something like a billion years. We’re only beginning to understand just the tiniest bit of it. We don’t know exactly why we are attracted to the opposite sex, nor do we know why some of us are attracted to the same sex. It’s not a huge stretch to suggest that there may be more than a conditioned reason why some find same-sex relations distasteful. No, I don’t have ironclad proof of that, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to speculate that it’s an impossibility. > [@](#): > > But that’s neither here nor there. You’re right, it is irresponsible to hold people accountable for deep prejudices. No, wait, that’s bullshit. No it isn’t irresponsible! Or foolish! Or, I should say, it’s not irresponsible to hold people accountable for the inappropriate expression of deeply held prejudices. Strange, though - isn’t that what you’re saying? This may come as a shock to you, but NO. I never once said that. No once. It is a fiction in your fevered brain. It is made up. It is a faerie tale. It is an untruth. It is a product of your own stupidity. It is a lie. Don’t believe me? Provide a cite. Go ahead, go get one. I can wait. > [@](#): > > “It’s what people do with these prejudices.” Well, **DUH**. You say “duh”, and yet here I am still explaining the bloody obvious to you. > [@](#): > > And what I’m saying, in agreeing with the OP, is that loudly proclaiming your disgust at a gay kissing scene in Rent while sitting in the middle of a crowded theater is inappropriate! If someone is squicked out, fine. They can even squirm quietly in their seat, if that will help. But when you cross the line into saying “eewww!”, you’ve turned yourself from an uncomfortable but respectful person into an uncomfortable dick. There’s no call to be a dick. I never said differently. Call me a liar if you want, but I expect you to provide a cite. Moron. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/111 "2005-11-30T15:12:02Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I don’t have ironclad proof of that, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to speculate that it’s an impossibility. Possibility. :smack: Scans a little better that way, no? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/112 "2005-11-30T15:37:04Z")
> [@furt](#): > > But what Martin (I think) and I are objecting to is the sense that what is being judged here are not actions but _feelings_; that having a visceral reaction is itself wrong, even if nothing is ever said, even if the person males no effort to translate that visceral reaction into any sort of moral judgement. The person is bad and wrong because of something that had no control or choice over, any more than they could choose to stop liking dogs and prefer cats. If they kept it to themselves, there would be no way for others to know of their bigotry. Their actions give evidence of their bigotry. I don’t like bigots even if they don’t join the Klan. Can either you or **tdn** provide any evidence, cite any research, link to any article by a reputable scholar or clinician that supports your idea that negative reactions to homosexuals is in any way innate rather than a learned behavior? If not then you’re simply grasping for straws to justify anti-gay behavior. > [@tdn](#): > > And it’s a poor debating technique to say “You know who you are” and then declare yourself morally superior. If you have accusations to make, make them. And bring evidence. I’m not interested in debating homophobes. I simply show scorn. Refusing to address someone directly is a subtle method of demonstrating disdain. I don’t know your or **furt** ’s posting history well enough to form an opinion about your motivations in this thread, so I’m not making any accusations.Nor do I know why you seek to excuse poor behavior or defend bigotry, even when held in check. If it’s because you haven’t come to terms with your own homophobia and can’t face condemnation, then you have a choice. You can deal with your hang-ups like a grown up and learn to discard your prejudice. Or get used to the idea that the rest of civilized humanity will consider you a relic of the past and we’ll look down our noses at you contemptuously. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/113 "2005-11-30T16:05:05Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > If not then you’re simply grasping for straws to justify anti-gay behavior. Oh, for fuck’s sake. Who in this thread is trying to justify anti-gay behavior? I do not believe even one person tried to. If you have evidence to the contrary, please cite it. Don’t just make shit up. > [@](#): > > I’m not interested in debating homophobes. I simply show scorn. Refusing to address someone directly is a subtle method of demonstrating disdain. Ah. In other words, you want to comfort of calling people names without taking the responsibility of backing up your name calling. Very lame indeed. > [@](#): > > I don’t know your or **furt** ’s posting history well enough to form an opinion about your motivations in this thread, so I’m not making any accusations. Then stop making accusations. To enlighten you, here’s my motivation: I abhor homophobia. I have no stomach for it. Not only do I not mind what other people do in their own homes, I have a sort of admiration for gay people. Many of them are very cool. I wish I had more gay friends. But here’s the thing: I’m smart enough to realize that such a stance is not easy to come by for a lot of people. I’m smart enough to realize that some people carry around prejudices, often against their will. And I’m smart enough to realize that I can’t beat enlightenment into people, but there are plenty willing to beat it out of them. > [@](#): > > Nor do I know why you seek to excuse poor behavior or defend bigotry, even when held in check. If it’s because you haven’t come to terms with your own homophobia and can’t face condemnation, then you have a choice. I’ve come to terms with it. I’ve explained that, several times. Why you choose to ignore that is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/114 "2005-11-30T16:06:12Z")
I’ve been following this thread for a while. The original talk did not say people are not allowed to feel “icked out” at all. It said that it is not cool to loudly express this disgust in a movie theater where other people may be trying to watch the movie, and where people may not want to hear any pseudo-macho nonsense about it. If it makes anyone uncomfortable, then they really should not be there watching Rent, or To Won Foo, or Brokeback Mountain. Just don’t go to those movies. If you go to them by mistake, if it is that much of an ordeal to see it, just get up and leave. Nobody cares if some people don’t like it. To each his own. They do care when they have to listen to how gross/sick/disgusting it is from some loudmouth cretin who can’t shut up. Now the “phobes” are getting offended, because they are being “persecuted” for their obnoxious behavior. Again, nobody cares what you like or dislike, so long as the pie hole stays shut. The rest of us don’t want to hear about your little “personal problems”. Nobody is required to “understand” you or put up with your childish shit. Grow the fuck up. If that isn’t possssible, just shut the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/115 "2005-11-30T16:12:22Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Now the “phobes” are getting offended, because they are being “persecuted” for their obnoxious behavior. Who would these people be? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/116 "2005-11-30T16:33:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And he did so. You have yet to offer a rebuttal more substantial than, “Is not!” What other reason would there be to groan at that scene besides homophobia? The only two I can think of are a) they really wanted one of the characters to hook up with someone else, or b) they were really, really into the kiss, and couldn’t control themselves. Of the three options, “they were homophobes” seems to be the most likely. There are plenty of reasons why someone groans at something. It’s not my job to prove why they did what they did. He is the one claiming it’s because they’re homophobic, and his only proof is simply stating that that is the case. It’s circular logic. Even if they just don’t like seeing two men kiss, it doesn’t necessarily make them homphobes. Some people wouldn’t want to see someone kiss a dog, or hate seeing their parents kiss. Doesn’t mean they hate dogs or their parents. People react to things for a vast number of reasons, and to assume they are hateful is something that should be backed by some evidence. > [@Miller](#): > > No, but prejudice against race and gender is. Can you offer any evidence to the contrary? No it’s not. Prejudice is not always the same. Is the prejudice against smokers, fat people, Jews, gypsies, transvestites, and uneducated people the same? Each is based on different things. This is pretty basic. > [@Miller](#): > > It’s the only objective standard. No it’s not. There is no “objective” standard. What’s harmful to you, may be helpful to others. That’s why making absolute statements about issues where there is no consensus is foolish. Not that a consensus would prove the morality of an act, but it would provide a starting point. > [@Miller](#): > > Really? So, if someone said, “murder is wrong,” or “Hitler was evil,” would you be making the same arguments? There may be no moral absolutes in a purely external sense, but each of us draws our own boundaries about what we consider to be moral, what we consider to be a gray area, and what we consider to be immoral. An expectation of general tolerance does not exempt one from the ability to make moral judgments. No, it does not, but your argument falls apart when you consider that the lines each of us have drawn often include homosexuality as an immoral act. Tolerance doesn’t enter into the discussion anymore than it does with theft. Nobody is required to be accepting of something they consider immoral. The reason why we can agree murder is wrong is because its the majority opinion. Even then, killing when it suits us, won’t be considered murder. Now you, and others, think anyone who thinks homosexuality is immoral, is a homophobe. While there is plenty of overlap, the groups are not exclusive. > [@Miller](#): > > Why else would they be groaning, then? Generally, in the context described by **Sampiro** , a groan is an expression of disgust. What else would you call someone who is disgusted by homosexuality but a homophobe? Why do you keep saying this meaningless stuff? You have no idea why they groaned, nor do I. Even if they do find two men kissing disgusting, it doesn’t mean they hate gay people, or are homophobes. One of my good friends, hates seeing animals have sex. Does that mean he hates or discriminates negatively against animals? No, it just bothers him for some reason. > [@Miller](#): > > What is this, a Monty Python sketch? What the hell else do you call them? You can call them by their names, or you can provide some more evidence to support your assertion besides, they believe x, y, and z. > [@Miller](#): > > No, it’s like trying to prove that rape is worse than cheddar cheese. One act causes objectively measurable harm to an unwilling person. The other causes no objectively measurable harm to a person who is consenting to the activity. They are not remotely comparable in any sense. Harm is not objectively measurable. Besides, as I stated before, there are plenty sites that will outline why being gay is harmful. We don’t agree, but that doesn’t make it so. > [@Miller](#): > > So what’s your cut off point? What is the least harmful action a person can undertake, and still be a bigot? I’m honestly surprised you even include Phelps as a homophobe, because I can’t see any logical reasons behind any of your arguments, unless I assume that you are posting to this thread with ulterior motives. Yes, because anyone who disagrees with you must be up to something fishy. I don’t have a cutoff point, because it’s a case by case thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/117 "2005-11-30T16:42:56Z")
**Rape** is not objectively measurably harmful. The physical forced sexual violation of another person, a crime of violence, is not objectively measurably harmful. There’s nothing objectively worse about rape than seeing two men kiss. I revoke anything I’ve said before in any thread. **THIS** is officially the stupidest, craziest, most fanatical and arrogant and asinine and devoid of any logic or coherent demonstration sentiment I have ever seen expressed on these or any other boards. I’m relatively certain the Mods would close a “Who gets your vote for stupidest Doper” thread, but that’s a pity, because with the above post you could start getting your acceptance speech ready. Damn. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/118 "2005-11-30T16:48:06Z")
I’ve gone back to review the thread, **tdn** , and the best I can determine is that you were upset by my first post in response to one by **Paul in Saudi**. I’ll go ahead and quote those for easy reference. > [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > If only we all had the same politically-correct reactions to what see on the screen and stage. What a wonderful world it will be when there is no variation. > [@Homebrew](#): > > Better yet, if some folks weren’t asshole bigots who blame their intolernce on their genes and refuse to take responsiblity for their irrational fucktardedness, then what a wonderful world it will be. Variety may be the spice of life; but I can do without hemlock in my goulash. Now **Paul** ’s post seem worthy of nothing more than a dismissive, snarky reply. So that what I gave. The OP tells of assholes in a theater expressing anti-gay disgust during _Rent_. **Paul** then implies that those offended by that boorish behavior are being “PC” and overly sensitive. My post was nothing more than calling bullshit on his dismissive attitude. You then seemed to think I was referring to you. I wasn’t then. Subsequent posts and your defensiveness make me think you do have issues to deal with. I’m glad that you recognize your own visceral negative reactions to male same-sex affection is irrational and you are able to refrain from showing outward disgust. (Although I would guess an observant spectator would catch a subtle reaction from you.) However the fact that you’ve not gotten over your disgust means you do have learned behavior to overcome. But it can be done. You mentioned desensitation to violence before. Might I suggest you watch lots of gay porn until you can get over your negative feelings? Moving on, you and **furt** both seem to want to believe that your feelings are somehow innate. I guess that if they are innate, it relieves a bit of the personal responsibility for harboring prejudice. Unfortunately for you, there is no evidence that homophobia is anything but a learned behavior. I don’t mean to suggest it isn’t deep-seated and even difficult to root out. I had my own stuggles with homophobia that kept me in the closet until I was 30 and years into a marriage with a wonderful woman whom I remain friends with today. The upside to this is that there is hope for you to conquer your negative feelings and become a better person. I say a better person, because being a bigot does debase you. How much, of course, depends more on how you act than how you feel. I’m not saying your EVIL incarnate or even a bad person. In your case, it seems to not be much of a debasement, but it does leave room for improvement. Certainly you’re not on the level with Phelps or James Dobson; but neither are you Cyndi Lauper or Margaret Cho. You say you wish you had more gay friends. Do you think that maybe your unease with gay affection puts up barriers to those friendships? It would hinder being friends with me if I know you find me “icky”. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/119 "2005-11-30T17:08:30Z")
**Homebrew** , thanks for finally addressing this head-on. I should clear up one misunderstanding, however. I no longer have any “icky” feelings towards gays at all. If I gave that impression, I’m sorry. Queer Eye is one of my favorite shows, or was until I got kind of bored with it. I’ve seem The Birdcage about 5 times. I recently watched To Wong Foo, and loved it. It was fabulous. I haven’t seen Rent, and don’t intend to, but it’s for reasons completely unrelated to the gay stuff (which I didn’t even know about until this thread). I am not a homophobe. At all. The reason I reacted so vehemently in this thread is not because I’m a closet homophobe. It’s because I was (or perceived I was) being accused – repeatedly – of being something I most certainly am not. And the reason seemed to be that I was not toeing the party line strong enough. I imagine that if you were in that position you’d object as well. And the reason that I don’t have many gay friends is not because of some deep-seated resentment or fear or whatever. It’s because I simply don’t know many gay people, sadly. And I’m pretty slow to make friends. Pretty simple, really, Occam would be proud. But I do appreciate the fact the you realize I am neither Margaret Cho nor Cyndi Lauper. For your edification, I am also not Pauly Shore. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952/120 "2005-11-30T17:15:37Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > **Rape** is not objectively measurably harmful. > > The physical forced sexual violation of another person, a crime of violence, is not objectively measurably harmful. No it’s not. What objective measurement are you referring to. Of course we can all agree it’s a horrible thing, but it’s not objectively measurable. Is rape worse than murder? Arguable, but it’s not something that can be demonstrably proven. > [@Sampiro](#): > > There’s nothing objectively worse about rape than seeing two men kiss. Be consistent. If we are talking about **seeing** two me kiss, then it should be compared to **seeing** someone be raped. Both are parts of a movie. Given that, I think most people are more desensitized to violence, than they are to male homosexuality. If you want to compare both acts in real life, I would agree that rape is certainly worse, but I would not offer my opinion as a substitution for “proof”. > [@Sampiro](#): > > I revoke anything I’ve said before in any thread. **THIS** is officially the stupidest, craziest, most fanatical and arrogant and asinine and devoid of any logic or coherent demonstration sentiment I have ever seen expressed on these or any other boards. Nothing quite like taking your ball and going home because a few people don’t agree with you. You’re a coward, who has made accusations without backing them up. Just because you have a persecution complex, doesn’t mean the world is actually against you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pgh-13-pathetic-groaning-homophobes-who-act-like-theyre-13/332952.md?page=7)