# Ph.D. vs M.D. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 16, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433 "2002-10-16T01:11:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/41 "2002-10-17T17:22:57Z")
> [@](#): > > In the US the entire process takes nine years, but four of these will be spent studying something other than medicine, and possibly something wholly unrelated to the field. I am under the impression that American undergraduates take a wider range of subjects than British undergraduates. Most bachelor’s degree programs have distribution requirements, so even if one majors in a liberal arts subject, one would have taken at least some science courses, and most sciences are, in one way or another, _related_ to medicine. (I majored in mass communications – possibly one of the least scientific majors – and managed to get a fairly healthy dose of biology, statistics, and psychology, and even some math.) Additionally, many of these people would have majored in pre-medicine. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/42 "2002-10-17T17:37:51Z")
Point taken. I also think there is merit in having medical doctors (and other professionals) who have studied outside their immediate field of professional interest. On the whole I favour the US system, although the British/Irish system does seem to me to have a higher _minimum_ content of specifically medical study for most doctors. I don’t know when the standard US medical degree became an MD as opposed to a bachelor’s degree, but I think that the practice of addressing physicians as “doctor” has nothing to do with the academic characterisation of the degree, and may predate the routine awarding of MDs. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/43 "2002-10-17T18:20:53Z")
Another note about “professor” vs. “doctor”, when addressing academics: Although many schools require a doctorate before a person can enter the tenure track, this is not always the case. It’s possible for a person with, say, a Master’s degree to be an assistant or associate professor, although a non-doctor full professor would be pretty rare. On the other end of the scale, a significant portion of doctors in academia are “postdocs”, or post-doctoral scholars (the exact title may vary some). This is a position one holds for typically a few years after earning one’s degree, while waiting for a tenure-track opening. Postdocs don’t usually have any teaching duties (and are thus not addressed as “Professor” _or_ “Instructor”), and spend their time on research. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/44 "2002-10-18T02:17:33Z")
I believe this is only an honorary degree. (Or else it is an older form no longer used.) At the seminary I attend (in the US), and most others, a D.Min. (Doctor of Ministry) degree is offered for practicing clergy who want to further their education. There are also a few seminaries that offer a D.Miss. (Doctor of Missiology), a slightly more rigorous degree that specializes in cross-cultural ministry. A few seminaries and most large universities also offer Ph.D.s in religion, which many clergy obtain, especially if they wish to teach at a college or seminary. A person holding any of these degrees would probably be called “Doctor So-and-so” by their congregation, whether they want to be or not. Having a pastor with a doctorate is a source of pride for many congregations. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/45 "2002-10-18T02:57:02Z")
Since no one has mentionde the most-reviled Profession of the Professions… In the US, a “Doctor of Engineering” degree (“DE”) is considered to be “inferior” to the PhD in Engineering. They are not very common either. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/46 "2002-10-18T04:45:58Z")
My undergraduate institution (in the US), awarded two distinct types of master’s degrees in the engineering school. The Master of Mechanical Engineering (say) was a one-year, non-thesis program, while the Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering involved more time and a thesis. The MME was not a stepping stone to the MSME; you got into one track and went for it. I think this is similar to what Una mentioned with the DE, but slightly more common. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/47 "2002-10-18T06:04:03Z")
As a side note, it is considered pretty rude to address a physician as “Mr. So-and-so.” In contrast, many people wouldn’t think twice about addressing a Ph.D. as “Mr.” Is this appropriate? I don’t think so – but it is pretty common. It probably stems from that woefully mistaken notion that physicians are the only “real” doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/48 "2002-10-18T11:18:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by brad\_d \* > \*\*My undergraduate institution (in the US), awarded two distinct types of master’s degrees in the engineering school. The Master of Mechanical Engineering (say) was a one-year, non-thesis program, while the Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering involved more time and a thesis. > > The MME was not a stepping stone to the MSME; you got into one track and went for it. > > I think this is similar to what Una mentioned with the DE, but slightly more common. \*\* Yeah, I forgot about that one. When I went for my MS-ME, I could have instead gone for the “ME-ME”, which was “Master of Engineering, Mechanical Engineering”. Which was called the “Mini-ME” by one joker I knew. It was essentially the same as the MS-ME, but had a 9-credit hour industry project. The DE was the same as the PhD, but had a 20-hour industry project. AFAIK, it is not offered at my school anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/49 "2002-10-18T12:18:24Z")
I am not sure if all this is what the OP meant. He asked about people calling themselves “doctors”. That has become pretty much synonymous with physician and should probably be restricted to them. On the other hand, the use of Dr. as an honorific is, in principal, open to anyone who has earned any sort of doctorate, including MD, JD, DVM, and even, God help me, DEd. My dean once pointed out to me that all those degrees are awarded by one or another schools for faculties; only the PhD is awarded by the university as a whole. Not that it makes any difference in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/50 "2002-10-18T13:20:48Z")
> [@](#): > > My dean once pointed out to me that all those degrees are awarded by one or another schools for faculties; only the PhD is awarded by the university as a whole. I have no frame of reference for this statement. What does it mean? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/51 "2002-10-18T15:48:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*In contrast, many people wouldn’t think twice about addressing a Ph.D. as “Mr.” > > Is this appropriate? I don’t think so – but it is pretty common. \*\* Were I to have a doctorate, I would chuckle and mumble sheepishly “It’s Dr., actually.” But yeah, years of research and preparation of an original thesis? You’re damned right I’d want people calling me by the title I’d earned. –Cliffy, Esq. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/52 "2002-10-18T15:58:54Z")
Insisting that people call you by a title really sits wrong with me. I choose to call some people “Dr” if they’ve earned my respect, and have the degree. Otherwise, they’re just like anyone else. I had a person correct me only once - I said “Mr X”, and he interrupted me, and said “it’s ‘Dr X’, thank you.” Then I said “Well ‘doctor’, I have this pain in my ass. Except it’s not in the usual place - it’s standing right here in front of me.” He was nonplussed, but then started to laugh, and we got along much better after that. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/53 "2002-10-18T16:07:38Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re damned right I’d want people calling me by the title I’d earned. The intoxication with your newfound superpowers tends to fade over time. ---
**Author:** ![moocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4da419/32.png) [@moocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moocher)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/54 "2002-10-18T18:44:16Z")
Wow. I didn’t expect this much reponse to my first question. It’s cool that the SDMB has such a response to my opening account question. But, besides who is a “Doctor”, which posters have addressed: I’d like to know what empowers degree giving. WHO confers this degree and what is their standing:? Who would I have to be to either confer: A) a M.D. or B) a pH.D. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/55 "2002-10-18T19:20:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Who would I have to be to … confer … a pH.D. A strip of litmus paper. 😃 Actually, anyone can confer on himself or herself the power of granting degrees. If you want to be taken seriously in the United States as an institution of higher learning, however, you must be accredited by the government of the state and any non-government accrediting bodies that are widely recognised in the field. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/56 "2002-10-18T19:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > **Insisting that people call you by a title really sits wrong with me. I choose to call some people “Dr” if they’ve earned my respect, and have the degree. Otherwise, they’re just like anyone else.** That’s different. There’s a big difference between what we should call people, and what we _insist_ on being called. I have a doctorate. I don’t insist that people call me “Doctor”; in fact, in the overwhelming majority of cases, I ask them to simply call me by my first name. If people make a big deal about my title, I’m quick to emphasize that it’s not necessary. However, it does irk me when people call me “Mister \,” even when they know that I have a doctorate. Medical doctors aren’t treated this way, so why should non-medical doctors be accorded less respect? My advice would be to refer to a Ph.D. as “Doctor,” or to simply drop the title altogether. In other words, please ascribe unto them the correct title, or (as most Ph.D.'s would prefer) don’t use any at all. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/57 "2002-10-18T20:31:54Z")
Well, I have an acquaintance who calls me “Mr. Mercotan”. He knows I’m a physician. I’ve told him that my name is Qadgop, and I’d prefer he use that, but if he must use my last name, then it’s “Dr. Mercotan”. (There’s lots of relatives of mine going my Mr. Mercotan in this area from whom I choose to distinguish myself). But he still calls me “Mr. Mercotan”. So I just drop it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/58 "2002-10-19T00:35:37Z")
So if I am a licensed Professional Engineer with a graduate degree (but not a PhD), should I start asking people to refer to me as “Ing. Persson” or “Eng. Persson”, as is commonly done in many countries (such as, at a minimum, Italy, Spain, and Portugal)? That honorific is typically used by anyone who is an actual degreed engineer. Should I start asking that anyone who writes to me put “P.E.” after my name, since it refers to my State Professional license? Maybe I should, from now on. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/59 "2002-10-19T02:06:52Z")
Moocher, what acsenray is saying is that only schools can give meaningful degrees–individuals cannot. If I scrawl “Degree from the Wumpus School of Life” on a piece of paper, it’s meaningless as a degree, even though I have a Ph.D. In the U.S., the only degrees that are taken seriously are from accredited schools. So even if I set up a “school” called Wumpus University in my basement and begin issuing degrees, other schools and the government will not take those degrees seriously until Wumpus University becomes accredited. Despite the fact that degrees from non-accredited schools are worthless as credentials, there are plenty of “diploma mills” that will be happy to sell you a M.A., Ph.D, etc. from a non-accredited school. Here’s an entertaining little piece on how diploma mill scams work: [http://www.sireview.com/articles/bsmaphd\_sidebar.html](http://www.sireview.com/articles/bsmaphd_sidebar.html) And here’s some info on accreditation: [http://www.chea.org/pdf/fact\_sheet\_1.pdf](http://www.chea.org/pdf/fact_sheet_1.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![moocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4da419/32.png) [@moocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moocher)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433/60 "2002-10-19T03:31:35Z")
Thanks, Wumpus for the info. But I wasn’t really interested in degree mills. As a matter of fact, my B.S. is on the wall above my monitor. It’s got 4 signatures on it: the dean, the president, the chancellor, and the ‘chairperson’. This is from the University of Maryland, which most people would recognize as a legit school. Go Terps! I have a graduate degree as well with a different set of signatures on it. But that’s neither here nor there. My question is what empowers a person to sign such a degree? Who can sign off on a pH.D. or a M.D.? From a legit school, that is. Can a M.D. confer a pH.D.? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ph-d-vs-m-d/132433.md?page=4)