# Phantom Menace is a crying shame **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 26, 2001, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330 "2001-11-26T18:36:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/41 "2001-11-27T11:19:33Z")
I’ve never seen the original three Star Wars Movies, so came to The Phantom Menace with fresh eyes, and was quite horrified with how bad it was. I’d go along with all the above criticisms, except for Natalie Portman, whom I didn’t think was that bad (the part was more wooden than her portrayal of it). What amazed me was the Anakin kid. I saw some doco before I saw the actual film about the making of it. The final shortlist of three child actors spent a weekend or something at Lucas’s ranch. One was the kid that got it, who as seems to be universally agreed was terrible, another was just non-descript - I can’t remember him, and the third was outstanding. I think he was a little blond boy. It just defies belief why Lucas chose the one he did, and not that other actor. Was he friends with his parents or something? Anyway the bad kid actor tied with Jar Jar Binks as being the root cause of why the film was so awful. My only other observation was that having seen Ewan McGregor do his part in that, he’d make a good Bond 007 one day. ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/42 "2001-11-27T12:17:42Z")
> [@](#): > > But I do think that a few people in this thread are trying to make just a bit too much of the plot flaws. Star Wars films are essentially action movies and they don’t have any pretensions at being anything else. Plot will never be their strong point and of course it all rather comes apart at the seams if you analyse it enough. Well, OK, fair enough, but a lot of the action in The Phantom Menace sucked tauntaun weenie, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/43 "2001-11-27T12:50:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Fool \* > \*\*One thing you have to say for it, the movie looks good. \*\* Ha! I watched the movie with very low expectations (which it lived down to), but the one thing I thought I’d see was some excellent SFX. Instead, the movie is full of crappy CGI, and it’s obviously computer animated. Lucas has learned nothing about subtle and intricate effects since the first three movies, it seems. I will not be watching “Attack of the Clones”. I can’t believe I allowed myself to be talked in to watching Phantom Menace. Lucas needs to choose between making an adult’s movie, or an episode of the Muppets. This meeting in the middle sucks big time. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/44 "2001-11-27T13:43:16Z")
Like many of you, I so dearly wanted this movie to be good, and like many of you I thought it sucked. Most of it’s failures have been addressed in this thread, but you left out a big one. There is no bad guy. Darth Maul? Gimme a break! Wearing heavy makeup does not make one bad. Doing bad things makes one bad. Darth Vader: tortured Lea and Solo, killed many of his own officers, killed Obi-Wan after his saber had went off, and most of all, told Lea: “Tell me where the rebels are or I’ll blow up your planet!” She tells him. He blows up the planet anyway. Darth Maul defeated Qui Gong in a duel. Not evil. I will add that SW1 sucks because it _is not_ a rippoff of an old story. There are certain tales that people will like hearing over and over again, this is what the original trilogy was. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/45 "2001-11-27T14:09:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I became throughly disillusioned with George Lucas’ talent and vision [after seeing The Phantom Menace] I becaame disillusioned after seeing _Return of the Jedi_. _Star Wars_ was excellent at the time. Groundbreaking. Sure it had some flaws, like the stormtroopers using Sterling sub-machineguns and Han Solo using a 1898-type broomhandle Mauser, and Lucas mistaking “parsec” for a unit of time (there are a lot of apollogists for that, explaining that Solo was making a joke, but it sounds a lot like fundies defending the Bible – there is no evidence on-screen that it was anything but a mistake), and the dialog is just plain hokey; but the first film was rollicking good fun and nothing like it had been seen before. _The Empire Strikes Back_ was the best of the original three. I still get a chuckle at the scene where Yoda is sort-of moving up and down on Luke’s back and saying, “Ahh… ahhh.” Actually, I didn’t much care for the Yoda character. Too Muppet-y. I also didn’t like Ol’ Big One Kebobish’s reappearance. (Nothing against him; I just like making fun of his name.) He pops up in the swamp and says, “Luke, you have to concentrate on the force. Let it work through you. Oh, and by the way, Darth Vader is your father and Leia is your sister. Jeez, look at the time! I’ve got to get back to the ether! Ciao, babes.” I thought that could have been done better. Personally I would have made it into a Greek tragedy: Luke falls in love with Leia (as he did) and sleeps with her. She becomes pregnant and _then_ they find out they’re siblings. She goes off to some remote planet to bear her brother-son or sister-daughter and the _child_ becomes the next hope. In the meantime, Luke is killed by Vader in a reverse-Oedipus thing and Vader is stronger than ever. Queue next episode. _Return of the Jedi_ started out okay. And who didn’t like seeing Carrie Fisher in the slave costume? But the teddy bears! (What were they called?) I hated them. Really hated them. They spoiled the movie for me. I think Lucas saw that the demographics were pointing to children being the primary viewers of his films. He made the business decision to make “Muppets in Spaaaaaaace!” instead of a “serious” space-opera. Good for business; not good for people who have outgrown Muppets. _Star Wars_ was a science fiction film that could be enjoyed by everyone. _The Empire Strikes Back_ was too. _Return of the Jedi_ started out well, but then went on with characters that could really only be appreciated by pre-adolescents. _The Phantom Menace_ looked like a Disney film after Disney stopped making films like _Swiss Family Robinson_ and _20,000 Leagues Under the Sea_ and started making kids-only films. _Attack of the Clones_. My god, what a crappy titles. I keep hearing Frank Sinatra singing, “Send in the clones…” Or I think of “Killer Clones from Outer Space”. Bad, bad title. _Star Wars_ mentioned “the Clone Wars”. The title should have been _Star Wars: The Clone Wars_. Yes, “wars” twice in the title is awkward; but it’s better than “Attack of the Clones”! Besides, no one uses “Star Wars” when referring to the titles of the other films. They’re referred to as “The Empire Strikes Back”, “Return of the Jedi” and “The Phantom Menace”. An interview with Lucas in TV Guide has him saying that he never intended to make three trilogies. He said that that was something Marketing came up with and that he has no intention of making a third trilogy. Unless he can do better than The Muppet Show, then that’s a good thing. The next episode is supposed to be “darker”. I hope that means it will be more suitable for a wider audience. He can’t continue counting on the good will generated by the first series. He needs to make good films. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/46 "2001-11-27T14:13:44Z")
Bloody codes. ---
**Author:** ![Yondan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/278dde/32.png) [@Yondan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yondan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/47 "2001-11-27T14:32:27Z")
**Johnny** , Most of your observations are right on, but some of your plot synopsis is inaccurate. Obi-Wan didn’t have that lame-o conversation with luke until ROTJ. For anyone old enough to remember the original release of TESB, there were months of speculation about the truth of Vader’s assertion afterwards. Was he telling the truth? Was he lying in an attempt to seduce Luke? Stay tuned! Great times. _Empire_ was clearly the best of the three. **Jovan** , I agree, and this is why he was so wasted. Although, killing someone just because you hate them is pretty evil. Maul had a great _look_, and was not allowed to develop his evilness, being cut down in his prime, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/48 "2001-11-27T14:46:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _RickJay says:_ The name of the movie you’re quoting is “Star Wars.” They might have added “A New Hope” to the scrolling title in the VHS release, but I saw “Star Wars” in 1977. Actually, they added the “New Hope” part in one of the pre-_Empire_ theatrical re-releases (1979 or so), to set up the larger continuity. I didn’t bother rewatching the film, but nobody’s mentioned the “documentary” on R2-D2; did anybody see it and what did you think? I should add one thing, though–if a friend were to tell you that Neeson, Stamp, Jackson, Portman, and MacGregor were all either very good or exceptional actors and your first experience seeing them in a movie was _TPM_, how likely would you be to believe that friend? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/49 "2001-11-27T14:58:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ArchiveGuy \* > I didn’t bother rewatching the film, but nobody’s mentioned the “documentary” on R2-D2; did anybody see it and what did you think? It was hilarious. Did you see the “Behind the Laughter” episode of _The Simpsons_? Same vein. ---
**Author:** ![justinh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@justinh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justinh)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/50 "2001-11-27T16:24:47Z")
Are you braindead? The original was parsecs better than Strikes Back or Return. Have you notice that the opening scene in all 4 movies is the best scene of the entire movie? What is all this about the Palpat being bad? Who is Sidious? ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/51 "2001-11-27T16:40:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hodge \* > I just wanted to jump in with another “me, too” post about Natalie Portman. However, As much as I admired her in **The Professional** , I think her best performance was actually in [Beatiful Girls](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0115639). It’s a hidden gem and _not_ the typical chick flick implied by it’s cover. I was waiting for someone to mention that movie - yes, she was absolutely outstanding in Beautiful Girls. Her character was, to me, so convincing that I even felt that same “wrong” attraction to her that Timothy Hutton’s character had. I feel she was wasted in Episode I - perhaps Episode II will give her more room to move, acting-wise. I will also concur that Jake Lloyd can’t act to save his life. Nice to see others were annoyed by the terribly false “Yippee!” as well. My biggest complaint is that I found the ending of Episode I to be very, very anti-climactic. At the end of the other movies in the series, I walked away with a feeling that something larger than the characters had been accomplished - not so with Episode I. My thought was “Hmmm, Darth Maul is dead - well, that was fun.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/52 "2001-11-27T17:01:10Z")
re. the Fox broadcast w/R2D2 special – did they make any reference to this [the 1999 M.I.T. hack]? 🆒 [http://hacks.mit.edu/Hacks/by\_year/1999/r2d2/](http://hacks.mit.edu/Hacks/by_year/1999/r2d2/) ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/53 "2001-11-27T17:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Scrivener \* > did they make any reference to this [the 1999 M.I.T. hack]? Am I the last person to learn that “hack” has become an accepted synonym for “prank,” or is this just an M.I.T. thing? ---
**Author:** ![SlickUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@SlickUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlickUSA)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/54 "2001-11-27T17:51:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdsnake \* > \*\*Dear Sky-walkers, > > I will watch the next installment only if James Cameron or John Woo writes and directs it. > > BD \*\* James Cameron–YES John Woo–LORD NO, especially after he screwed the pooch (quote from Cameron’s True Lies) with Mission: Impossible 2 But hell, even Ron Howard could have done better than Lucas on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Yondan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/278dde/32.png) [@Yondan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yondan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/55 "2001-11-27T18:04:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SlickUSA \* > \*\*John Woo–LORD NO, especially after he screwed the pooch (quote from Cameron’s True Lies) with Mission: Impossible 2 > \*\* [completely necessary hijack] Are you braindead? 🙂 That movie rocked! [/completely necessary hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Lagasek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e99b99/32.png) [@Lagasek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lagasek)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/56 "2001-11-27T18:05:23Z")
Despite my earier post, I thought the movie was worth the matinee price I paid for it. Again I hated the kiddie (Muppet Show, tee hee) aspect, Jar Jar and Anakin made me cringe. I also think Darth Maul was totally wasted, he had good villian potential, and had a cameo. I will watch the rest in the hope that the darker nature of the subject matter will salvage the storyline for me. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/57 "2001-11-27T18:29:34Z")
The highlight of my Sunday night Fox viewing was when my 4-year-old son misunderstood Luke yelping into his walkie-talkie in the garbage compactor. “Creepio! Creepio!” my little boy mimicked. I’d heard TPM was poorly done so I didn’t bother watching it until the other night. I missed whole chunks but since I was somewhat familiar with what the story was supposed to be, I followed it all right. My, how boring. **Archive Guy** , the only reason I could stay awake watching Liam Neeson was that I knew he was such a capable actor, that I suppose I was reading things into his performance that, actually, were not there. I did enjoy his long hair, however. LOL Anakin’s mother? Gah. Sure she was glad her son was leaving a life of “slavery,” but you might work up a tear or two at his departure. Anakin: Didn’t he remind you of that littlest spud on Eight Is Enough? Tell the truth. And I agree – the movie was packed with unforgivable juvenile jokes. I too was slack-jawed at the animal farts. We want to revere these characters! Not imagine them gasping and going “pee-yoo.” I thought I just missed most of the Darth Maul scenes, but apparently I saw them all. What a waste! I think I enjoyed reading **Yondan** ’s thoughts on how the series can be rounded out that any one moment of the movie. Please give Lucas a jingle right away! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/58 "2001-11-27T19:36:04Z")
The virgin birth angle made me hurl. Can you get any less subtle with your symbolism? Darth Maul was the most flat, soft spoken, weak-ass supposed bad guy I have ever seen. Who here would have calmly let Ben flip over top of you, watched as he paused a second or two in front of you, and then acted surprised when he cut you in half, all the while leaving your lightsaber off? Fart jokes just before a serious moment with mom, telling her kid to be safe (but who let’s her kid race 1000mph vehicles with psychopaths to solve strangers’ money problems). Bad acting, bad dialog, lame jokes, muppets and halloween masks… uuuhg. Was there a good acting performance in the whole thing? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/59 "2001-11-27T19:45:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satasha \* > Was there a good acting performance in the whole thing? Kenny Baker did his usual _inimitable_ job. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330/60 "2001-11-27T20:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hodge \* > [B I actually _fell asleep_ during the pod race scene. It was as exciting as watching somebody else play a video game. \*\* _I_ fell asleep during the big shootout at the end. _IN THE THEATER_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-menace-is-a-crying-shame/95330.md?page=4)