# Phantom WWII Battle **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 5, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-wwii-battle/805928 "2018-01-05T16:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-wwii-battle/805928/1 "2018-01-05T16:47:33Z")
Some years ago I read a World War Two history that claimed, in passing, that a major tank battle in Russia never actually happened. Due to poor planning, poor communication and low visibility the Soviet tanks actually ran into their own anti-tank defenses, resulting in significant losses. Rather than admit what had happened, the generals involved announced a hard-fought victory over the Germans. Obviously, no one would believe German claims to the contrary, and while Stalin knew, admitting that no battle happened and his generals lied would be a terrible embarrassment, so he went along (at least publicly). I can remember no other significant details. So, is the story true, and what battle was the book referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-wwii-battle/805928/2 "2018-01-05T18:11:43Z")
Possibly [Operation Mars](https://kansaspress.ku.edu/978-0-7006-1417-2.html)? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-wwii-battle/805928/3 "2018-01-05T19:24:04Z")
Operation Mars actually happened though, but it’s the closest I can think of either. Based on the thread title I assumed this was going to be a question about the [Battle of the Pips](http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/K/i/Kiska.htm): > [@](#): > > It was at this point that one of the most puzzling incidents of the war took place, known afterwards as “The Battle of the Pips.” Warned by intelligence that the Japanese were on the move, the Americans had been patrolling west of Kiska, and on 22 July a group of PBYs picked up seven radar echoes (“pips”) moving east. The targets were tracked for six hours before the aircraft were forced to return to base to refuel. Kinkaid ordered a powerful force under Griffin and Giffen, consisting of 3 battleships, 5 cruisers, and 9 destroyers, to intercept. > On the night of 25-26 July, this force was steaming 90 miles south-southwest of Kiska in perfect weather conditions. An hour after midnight, _Mississippi’s_ SC radar detected seven radar echoes fifteen miles northeast. Four other ships confirmed the radar contacts and the fleet opened fire. _Wichita_ could clearly see both the seven echoes and the peak of Kiska volcano 76 miles away. Twenty minutes later, the echoes were reported to have change course, and shortly thereafter the echoes began disappearing from radar. However, no visual contact was ever made and no wreckage was found. > > The Navy officially concluded that the ships had been firing at spurious radar echoes from distant mountain ranges. It is not implausible that a distant target could appear to be 15 miles away; range aliasing is a problem for most radars. But the echoes were not along the bearing of any of the Aleutian volcanoes, and the bearings from different ships were slightly different, converging on the same point fifteen miles away. It seems clear that something was there. > > A number of theories have been presented to explain the echoes. One possibility is that the echoes were from large flocks of Dusky Shearwaters, a species of seabird that flies over the ocean looking for plankton to feed on. The disappearance of the echoes would correspond to the birds settling on the ocean surface to feed. However, it is hard to imagine even the most complacent seabirds being undisturbed by the fall of large-caliber shells in their midst. > > Surviving Japanese records show no surface forces in the area at the time, but it is possible the echoes were from a force of submarines traveling on the surface at night. Recollections from surviving Japanese naval officers suggest that such a force was in about the right area at the time and was forced to submerge to avoid gunfire. It is even possible that the submarines were deliberately decoying the American surface force: As a result of the “battle”, the American ships were forced to return to base to refuel and rearm, and it was during this interval that Kawase’s evacuation force made its dash to Kiska. The force reached the harbor on 28 July and embarked the entire garrison in less than an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-wwii-battle/805928/4 "2018-01-05T21:37:47Z")
There’s some similarity to the Katyn massacre. That wasn’t a mistake by the Soviets. After the Soviets invaded eastern Poland in 1939 in accordance with their agreement with the Nazis, they rounded up a number of Poles who they thought might form the base of a resistance movement; military officers, police, local government officials, teachers, etc. They executed over twenty thousand Poles and buried the bodies in mass graves in the Katyn Forest. A couple of years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union and occupied the Katyn Forest. They found the graves in 1943 and brought in observers from neutral countries like Switzerland to inspect them. It was a propaganda move to show how evil the Soviet regime was and thereby help justify the German invasion. Stalin denied everything. He said the Soviets had been welcomed by the Poles and hadn’t executed anyone. He said the Germans had killed all those people and then moved the bodies to make the Soviets look bad. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phantom-wwii-battle/805928/5 "2018-01-06T16:20:32Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Based on the thread title I assumed this was going to be a question about the [Battle of the Pips](http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/K/i/Kiska.htm): [Operation Cottage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cottage) was around then and there and much stupider. 313 casualties while fighting to take an island the Japanese had already abandoned.