# Pharmacist's conscience and new Indiana abortion law **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850 "2011-05-14T00:04:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/281 "2011-05-20T04:12:00Z")
No. Just a basic dictionary definition. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/282 "2011-05-20T04:14:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Depending on the axioms you start with, yes. Or no. The “axioms” in question being ones like “truth matters”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/283 "2011-05-20T04:16:57Z")
True statements are derived from axioms. Axioms have no truth value. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/284 "2011-05-20T04:27:41Z")
We’re talking about empirical observations. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/285 "2011-05-20T04:39:56Z")
So, we’re no longer relying on “simple dictionary definitions”, but have moved on to “empirical observations”. I’ll check in later to see where we’ve moved to next. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/286 "2011-05-20T04:42:39Z")
We’re making an empirical observation that a clump of insentient tissue does not match the dictionary definition (or any common English language usage or concept of) the word, “person.” Nothing axiomatic about it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/287 "2011-05-20T04:48:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > We’re making an empirical observation that a clump of insentient tissue does not match the dictionary definition (or any common English language usage or concept of) the word, “person.” Nothing axiomatic about it. What empirical observations supports that a fetus does not match “a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/288 "2011-05-20T04:58:01Z")
Missed the edit window. Do you not see the irony in that post? After adamantly protesting against the (false) accusation that I have asked you to prove a fetus is not a person, you suddenly announce that you can… prove that a fetus is not a person. Of course the proof is some undefined “empirical observations”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/289 "2011-05-20T12:58:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What empirical observations supports that a fetus does not match “a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.”? All of them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/290 "2011-05-20T13:05:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What empirical observations supports that a fetus does not match “a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.”? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All of them. One of my emperical observations was that a human being has unique DNA polymerase nu. And so does a fetus! So it looks like all of the emperical data is going my way after all! Woo hoo! As you conceded, all emperical observations support the same conclusions. Therefore, I must only identify one that supports my conclusions, since we already know that they all point the same way. Wow, that’s mighty decent of you, **Diogenes**. And to think that some people accused you of arguing dishonestly! I hope the next time anyone says that, you simply point to this set of posts to show how you really work. Thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/291 "2011-05-20T13:07:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > One of my emperical observations was that a human being has unique DNA polymerase nu. And so does a fetus! So does a fingernail. So does a dead body. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/292 "2011-05-20T13:19:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So does a fingernail. So does a dead body. Hmmm. So… maybe… maybe ALL the emperical observations don’t distinguish between a human being from an animal or a thing after all? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > What empirical observations supports that a fetus does not match “a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.”? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All of them. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/293 "2011-05-20T14:07:06Z")
At this point, I’m pro-choice in the sense of “I believe I ought to be legally free to choose to bonk \*\*Dio \*\*and **Trihs** ’ heads together repeatedly until they stop ‘helping’ my side.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/294 "2011-05-20T14:11:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All of them. If it hadn’t already done so, this “debate” has officially turned into another episode of _The Dio Show_. I don’t like reruns, so excuse me if I change channels and watch something else. I’ve got people in another thread insisting, with the same tactics, that human races have biological meaning. They claim it’s so obvious that it requires “no science” to know this. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/295 "2011-05-20T14:44:40Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > At this point, I’m pro-choice in the sense of “I believe I ought to be legally free to choose to bonk \*\*Dio \*\*and **Trihs** ’ heads together repeatedly until they stop ‘helping’ my side.” My side has **classylady**. The grass ain’t always greener. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/296 "2011-05-20T16:26:19Z")
I didn’t know it was so controversial to state the bleeding obvious. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/297 "2011-05-20T17:02:49Z")
John and Bricker, as God is my witness, I don’t know why you guys waste your time. Haven’t you heard the one about why you never try to wrestle with a pig? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/298 "2011-05-20T18:26:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t know it was so controversial to state the bleeding obvious. Just one: Stop saying “look it up in an dictionary” or similar things, and just post a damn definition. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/299 "2011-05-20T18:29:22Z")
I will accept any dictionary definition. I am not proposing one of my own. A bloodclot isn’t a “person” under any commonly undersyood definition or English language usage of the word “person.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850/300 "2011-05-20T19:11:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I will accept any dictionary definition. No you won’t - **Bricker** and **John Mace** both gave you dictionary definitions and you rejected them. So this can’t be true. As I observed before, when you go into the Dio Show, you repeat yourself over and over but your spelling deteriorates. Why do you think that is? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pharmacists-conscience-and-new-indiana-abortion-law/581850.md?page=16)