# Phenomenon where pastime/discipline becomes more baroquely complex? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phenomenon-where-pastime-discipline-becomes-more-baroquely-complex/948033 "2021-08-04T16:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 3\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phenomenon-where-pastime-discipline-becomes-more-baroquely-complex/948033/41 "2021-09-01T02:31:51Z")
In one of the books in the STEN series, Chris Bunch and Allen Cole mention in passing a game “so complex and byzantine that it could only have been invented to stave off the boredom of deep-space patrols.” ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phenomenon-where-pastime-discipline-becomes-more-baroquely-complex/948033/42 "2021-09-01T13:51:42Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Those who engage in it would probably prefer “keeping it interesting.” > > And to be fair, there’s a part of human nature involved in creating elaboration and liking it. For example, there may be more people world-wide who’ve played checkers than people who’ve played chess, but chess engenders more passion and interest than does checkers. I don’t know… a lot of it strikes me as less “keeping it interesting”, and more of a sort of lack of… creativity? Imagination? Ingenuity? There’s something about someone deciding to simply complicate a dish, a cocktail, a cup of coffee, etc… as a way to show off, that makes me scowl, rather than just getting really good at doing it the normal way. I’m not talking about refining a procedure- lots of people do that. I mean, my kids like grilled chicken thighs with teriyaki sauce. So I’ve figured out a good way to do it- the brand of grocery store sauce they like, and a more or less foolproof scheme for cooking them on my particular gas grill (med-low, flip every 6 minutes, baste with sauce). That’s not particularly baroque or complicated. But I’m sure there’s some hobbyist cook out there who’s got a recipe for teriyaki chicken that involves aged sake, organic mirin, artisanal soy sauce, etc… and the cooking procedure is just-so, with specific charcoal, specific grill, specific spots on the grill at specific times, baste every third flip, etc… Come to think of it, a lot of Japanese cuisine has exactly the sort of absurd elaborateness I’m talking about- all that nonsense involved with sushi, etiquette, etc… is pretty much it squarely on the head. What you should and shouldn’t do with sushi vs. sashimi vs. a roll, and with soy sauce, wasabi, ginger, chopsticks, fingers, etc… It’s all just too precious and absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phenomenon-where-pastime-discipline-becomes-more-baroquely-complex/948033/43 "2021-09-02T00:05:50Z")
> [@bump](#): > > … I’m not talking about refining a procedure- lots of people do that. I mean, my kids like grilled chicken thighs with teriyaki sauce. So I’ve figured out a good way to do it- the brand of grocery store sauce they like, and a more or less foolproof scheme for cooking them on my particular gas grill (med-low, flip every 6 minutes, baste with sauce). That’s not particularly baroque or complicated. > > But I’m sure there’s some hobbyist cook out there who’s got a recipe for teriyaki chicken that involves aged sake, organic mirin, artisanal soy sauce, etc… and the cooking procedure is just-so, with specific charcoal, specific grill, specific spots on the grill at specific times, baste every third flip, etc… I do agree with all of that. Sometimes people seem to believe that if they build a more elaborate mousetrap they’ll find fame and fortune. If the old, simple mousetrap worked better than the elaborate one, then a society that ignores the simple one in favor of the elaborate one is practicing a kind of decadence. In other words, faddishness and a desire to one-up others (‘oh, you’re still using those OLD mousetraps?!?!?’) create conditions that can actually harm a society, if they are widespread enough and involve important-enough aspects of living. _But_… > [@bump](#): > > Come to think of it, a lot of Japanese cuisine has exactly the sort of absurd elaborateness I’m talking about- all that nonsense involved with sushi, etiquette, etc… is pretty much it squarely on the head. What you should and shouldn’t do with sushi vs. sashimi vs. a roll, and with soy sauce, wasabi, ginger, chopsticks, fingers, etc… It’s all just too precious and absurd. Here I think the discussion moves—in a completely subjective fashion—to refinements that may be less about faddishness and the decadence it can lead to, and more about ‘finding ways to show respect for processes crucial to living, such as cooking and consuming food.’ And also ‘finding ways to distinguish insiders from outsiders.’ So, yes: subjective. Some of these ‘rules’ may help build social cohesion. Others may divide a society based on the higher status that comes with knowing and adhering to a fad, or the lowered status that comes with failure to keep up with the fads. Too Byzantine a set of rules for preparing and eating food could certainly become detrimental to the cohesion and efficiency of an economy and society. I won’t argue about that. The argument would be over where that line of excess actually lies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phenomenon-where-pastime-discipline-becomes-more-baroquely-complex/948033.md?page=2)