# Philadelphia named for an incestuous relationship? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2000, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824 "2000-08-02T08:16:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/1 "2000-08-02T08:16:58Z")
A Greek textbook I’m reading contains this shocker. > [@](#): > > **Philadelphia [is] the Quaker city of brotherly love, although the name in antiquity commemorated the incestuous love of Ptolemy Philadelphos for his sister.** I’d really like to prove this is some kind of sick myth, but the only evidence I’ve found so far is corroborative. The _Encyclopedia Britannica_ says Ptolemy II Philadelphos (308-246 B.C.), Hellenistic king of Egypt, married his sister Arsinoe II. Both Ptolemy and Arsinoe were thereafter called “Philadelphoi” (brother-loving). The city we know as Amman, Jordan, was first called Rabbah and renamed Philadelphia by Ptolemy (in honor of himself) when he conquered that part of the world. There are a couple of holes I can see in the theory. [ul][li]Why did they call _him_ brother-loving and not sister-loving?[/li][li]The Greeks had different words for “love.” Why did they use the root **phil-** (fondness / friendlieness)? Isn’t that the sort of love a brother and sister are supposed to have for each other? Why didn’t they use a word based on the root **erot-** (passionate love)?[/li][li]The name Philadelphoi would seem to be pejorative, but Ptolemy liked it so well he named a city Philadelphia in honor of himself. It doesn’t really make sense.[/li][li]There was more than one Philadelphia in the ancient world, though Amman is the only one I could find out much about. Is it possible that the earliest such city predates Ptolemy?[/ul][/li]And finally, what was William Penn thinking? Apparently he really thought it meant something like “brotherly love” (in the sense we usually mean by that). But you’d think he’d do some basic research on the history of the name before naming his city. I suppose he named the city more after the concept of brotherly love than after the city in Jordan, but still . . . ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/2 "2000-08-02T08:52:49Z")
wow dude. bibliophage, i was prepared to rip you a more useful one when iread the title. but now, after reading the post, um… does this mean i should sleep with my brother now? ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/3 "2000-08-02T09:44:35Z")
Philadelphia just means “Brotherly love”, not incest. All men are a brotherhood, there is peace on earth, fellowship and friendship everywhere, etc. I think that was the intended meaning. ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/4 "2000-08-02T11:18:12Z")
Yeah, **Abe** , that was the _intended_ meaning, but the point of the OP is that there is a deep, dark history behind it. Not a challenge, or anything, just trying to keep the original point clear. Nice research, **Bib**. I wonder if the RNC knows about this…:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Guy\_Propski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Guy\_Propski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guy_Propski)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/5 "2000-08-02T13:11:52Z")
Bib, I think I can make a couple of points here: 1. It was pretty common for the Egyptian royalty to marry siblings or other close relatives. I believe Anknaton (sp?) married his sister, as did good old King Tut. No one thought any less of them (at the time), because they were considered gods, and they could do as they please. The Greeks were pretty liberal minded about sex, so that may be why they used the phil- root to describe the situation. 2. I don’t remember reading anything about it, but I’m pretty sure Billy Penn wasn’t looking for any deeper meaning when he used “Philadelphia.” As a member of the Society of Friends, Penn considered all men his brothers, and naturally would want to commemorate this by founding a city of brotherly love (spiritual, not carnal). 3. I also can’t find a citing, but I’m pretty sure the city Philadelphia is mentioned in the Bible. As you pointed out, Philadelphia was later renamed Amman (Jordan), but it had the name Philadelphia from about 200 BC until about 200 AD. It later became the site of an Eastern Orthodox monestary. During the early Christian era, it was well known as a site of spiritual learning, which mostly wiped out most of the knowledge of the pagan origin of the city. 4. It’s not like Ptolemy was screwing his sister on the steps the temple. Their marriage was most likely one of convenience, to ensure the creation of a future Ptolemy. So the darker meaning of this relationship that you’re seeking didn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/6 "2000-08-02T13:49:11Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. It was pretty common for the Egyptian royalty to marry siblings or other close relatives. I believe Anknaton (sp?) married his sister, as did good old King Tut. No one thought any less of them (at the time), because they were considered gods, and they could do as they please. The Greeks were pretty liberal minded about sex, so that may be why they used the phil- root to describe the situation. Actually, the Egyptian Pharoahs were _expected_ to marry their siblings. After all, the Pharoahs were Gods, and therefore could only be expected to mate with other Gods. The only other Gods walking around were their brothers and sisters- ergo, you marry your brother or sister as the only possible receptacle of your God-love. I feel dirty just _writing_ that paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/7 "2000-08-02T15:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > The name Philadelphoi would seem to be pejorative, but Ptolemy liked it so well he named a city Philadelphia in honor of himself. It doesn’t really make sense. Well, let’s face it, the guy married his sister, and didn’t anything was wrong with that, so it obviously wasn’t pejorative to name the city Philadelphia. We can’t judge ancient cultures by our own mores. Unless, of course, your mores include marrying your sister. ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/8 "2000-08-02T17:06:19Z")
Ptolemy II was called “Ptolemides”, the son of Ptolemy, in his lifetime, but Arsinoe II was called Philadelphos in hers. She married him when she was in her forties, after she had been married off to a half-brother, Ptolemy Keraunos. Ptolemy I probably arranged this first marriage to ensure a descendent of his favorite Berenike succeeded him eventually, and half-sibling marriages were not considered unusual. There never has been a good explanation of the later full sibling marriage beyond keeping her from marrying otehr possible claimants. Arsinoe II adopted the children of Arsinoe I - Ptolemy II divorced her - and acted as his foreign minister of sorts, negociating with other Greek kingdoms. A poet named Sotades ridiculed the incestuous marriage, saying “You (Ptolemy) are thrusting your foul prick in that unholy hole!” Sotades was imprisoned for this. He escaped after Arsinoe’s death, but Ptolemy had a general hunt him down. Caught on a ship in the Aegean, he was sealed into a metal container and thrown in the sea. Several Philadelphias were named for Arsinoe II. Other, definitely incestuous Ptolemies used “phil-” names that had nothing to do with their marriages, like “Philopator” and “Philometer”, neither of whom had carnal relations with theri parents. I’m satisfied that “Phladelphia” means the city of fraternal love, in the sense the Chamber of Commerce likes. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/9 "2000-08-02T21:40:09Z")
John Corrado has the straight dope on Pharaonic incest. But the brother-sister matings were (1) specifically for destined-for-the-throne offspring; both were encouraged to take lovers otherwise, and (2) often a way to bring new blood into the royal house, counterintuitive as that may sound. In such a case, the Pharaoh and his sister the Great Wife, with no healthy son, adopted a noble boy, who married their daughter, preserving the tradition. Akhnaten, by the way, along with introducing monotheism, added a new kink to the process: he fell in love with his half-brother Smenkhhare, and IIRC married him, along with Nefertiti. Which leads us to the irony in the title of that Tom Hanks movie. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2000, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/10 "2000-08-02T21:57:38Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. I also can’t find a citing, but I’m pretty sure the city Philadelphia is mentioned in the Bible. As you pointed out, Philadelphia was later renamed Amman (Jordan), but it had the name Philadelphia from about 200 BC until about 200 AD. It later became the site of an Eastern Orthodox monestary. During the early Christian era, it was well known as a site of spiritual learning, which mostly wiped out most of the knowledge of the pagan origin of the city. _Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus {…} Philadelphia…_ -Revelation 1:11 From what I remember, Philadelphia was considered one of the seven “pillar” churches that was responsible for the “government” (in a manner of speaking) of early Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2000, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/11 "2000-08-03T01:13:22Z")
The Ancient Romans used to refer to incest as “the Egyptian vice”. They refered to homosexuality (& lesbianism) as “the Greek vice”. Puts the phrase “French postcards (nudge-nudge, wink-wink)” in a whole new light, don’t it? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2000, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/12 "2000-08-03T01:37:44Z")
Hell, Cleopatra married one of her brothers! ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2000, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/13 "2000-08-03T02:35:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _John Corrado wrote:_ > Actually, the Egyptian Pharoahs were expected to marry their siblings. The one objection I see to that is that Ptolemy II was not (ethnically) an Egyptian, he was a Macedonian. He was the son of Ptolemy I, who was a Macedonian general of Alexander’s who became ruler of Egypt when Alexander’s empire split following his death (and his mother was also a Macedonian). I’m not sure if the Ptolemy dynasty adopted many of the local customs, but I do know they continued to speak Greek while ruling Egypt. Furthermore, Egypt had not been under the rule of the Pharoahs for at least several hundred years. I forget when the last real Pharoah ruled, but Alexander did not conquer an independent Egypt ruled by Pharoahs but rather one that was part of the Persian Empire. (For that matter, he didn’t conquer it at all, really, the Egyptians were fed up with Darius, the emperor of Persia at the time, and Persian rule in general, and they voluntarily crowned him Pharoah of Egypt when he showed up with his army after making his way down the Phoenician coast.) So, yes, brother-sister marriage was the norm amongst the Pharoahs, but I’m not entirely sure that’s relevant to Ptolemy II’s situation. Was he adopting the practices of the ancient Pharoahs to endear his subjects to him? His mother, Berenice, was half-sister to Ptolemy I, which I suppose sets a bit of a precident, but Ptolemy I never married Berenice, having married instead Eurydice (daughter of Antipater, regent of Macedonia while Alexander was off fighting in Asia). Was the practice of marrying siblings common in Macedonia among the royalty or nobility? (As far as I know, it wasn’t, but that that didn’t appear to stop Ptolemy I from getting it on with his half-sister, though \*\* don Jamie\*\* implies that half-sibling marriage was not uncommon, but full-sibling marriage was.) Did Ptolemy II’s royal decendents have a practice of marrying their siblings too? Cleopatra apparently did, but she was several hundred years down the line. Ptolemy II was born only thirty or so years after Alexander conquered Egypt, when I would assume the Macedonian influence in the court would still have been strong. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2000, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/14 "2000-08-03T05:17:02Z")
I can’t connect to the _Encyclopedia Britannica Online_ right now, but they made it clear that the Greeks (and presumably the Macedonians as well) were scandalized when Ptolemy married his sister. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2000, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/15 "2000-08-03T06:00:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Why did they call him brother-loving and not sister-loving? They did. The Greek word for sister is _adelphê_ and the word for brother is _adelphos_. So the name Philadelphia covers both. > [@](#): > > The Greeks had different words for “love.” Why did they use the root phil- (fondness / friendlieness)? > Isn’t that the sort of love a brother and sister are supposed to have for each other? Why didn’t they > use a word based on the root erot- (passionate love)? As linguists will tell you, when you have a variety of words for the same basic thing, one of them will be “unmarked”–the general term that covers all of them as a default. The “marked” ones are more restricted in application. In Greek, _philos_ is the unmarked word for love. It works in an erotic context as well as in a nonerotic context. Consider the term _philanderer_. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2000, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/16 "2000-08-03T06:21:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus {…} Philadelphia… -Revelation 1:11 > > From what I remember, Philadelphia was considered one of the seven “pillar” churches that was responsible for the “government” (in a manner of speaking) of early Christianity. That was a different Philadelphia though, not present Amman. The Philadelphia in Revelations was in western Asia Minor, modern Turkey. The Ptolmeys did briefly rule the area, so they probably supplied the name for this one also. ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2000, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/17 "2000-08-03T15:56:17Z")
Let me first begin by apologizing for any errors in advance. The Ptolemies differentiated themselves by recycling throne names so that telling them apart is hellish in the extreme, and their practice of naming almost every son Ptolemy and declaring him co-king even if he expired at two months makes them hard to number. That and it’s been a while since I’ve read up on this. Half-sibling marriage is normal for ancient Greek kings. Typically wives or concubines kept separate households and their children had little contact as siblings. Ptolemy I and Berenike were half-siblings, IIRC, as well as all Pharoanic brother-sister marriages. This is considered normal in many other cultures as well. Ptolemy III (Euergetes) married his first cousin, not his sister. Ptolemy IV (Philopater) married his full sister, but was depraved and slept with just about anybody; Arsinoe III was isolated at court and does not appear to have liked him much. Ptolemy V (Philometer) was an only child. Ptolemies VI and VII were married to their sister simultaneously, thanks to a losing war with the Seleukids and Roman interference, and things get so complicated that I need a chart. Suffice it to say that all the members of the Ptolemaic dynasty hated each other and married each other a lot after Ptolemy V. The famous Cleopatra - VI or VII, depending on how you count - married two half-brothers, both, of course, named Ptolemy. They were both bumped off in power politics around puberty. She was also the only one in the whole family to learn to speak Egyptian, which should tell you what these Greeks thought of the natives. So half-sibling marriage had Greek and Egyptian roots, and full sibling marriage is a Ptolemaic Greek development. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2000, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/18 "2000-08-04T17:56:26Z")
What I found most intriguing here, to hijack this thread even further, is that owing to the vBB software, John Corrado’s post has the signature line quoting me three posts above the post in which I complimented him from which he copied it. Do we have a causality violation going on, or something? 🙂 Just for the record, the Philadelphia of Revelation is one of “the seven cities which are in Asia” – i.e., the seven towns that the early Christians had a church in that were located in the Roman province of Asia, more or less in southeast Turkey. It is quite distinct from the Philadelphia that had been and later would be again Amman --now the capital of Jordan…and that one was part of the Ptolemaic kingdom for a couple hundred years. The Ptolemies, a Greco-Macedonian family ruling as conquerors over Egypt, tried to be “more Egyptian than the Egyptians” – the incest among them was just one of many ways in which they tried to make themselves into the 28th or so dynasty of Egyptian Pharaohs in the minds and hearts of their subjects…mostly without success. ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/19 "2000-08-04T19:44:50Z")
I feel obliged to make some corrections to my previous comment and come into agreement with Polycarp. Berenike I, Pt. II and Ars. II’s mom, was not Ptolemy I’s sister, half or otherwise. Ptolemy V was called Epiphanes, and his son Ptolemy VI was Philometor. Ptolemy VII was also called Euergetes, but was known to the mob as “Physkon”. Polycarp is right that Greeks in Egypt admired Egyptian culture and considered it the font from which much of Greek culture emerged. But their “Egyptian” practices, like royal incestuous marriages, were as much the product of Greek stereotype as actual Egyptian practice. So, he’s right that the Ptolemies wanted to be like Egyptians, and I’m right that they didn’t want to be Egyptians. They didn’t speak the language, they didn’t wear Egyptian dress, and they stayed in very un-Egyptian cities, like Alexandria. Actual Egyptians had a heavier tax burden, too. Enjoy the Love-In. Long way from Jordan, no? ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2000, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824/20 "2000-08-04T21:31:51Z")
Summing up from my thoughts… I read the entire thread and I’m coming in a bit late, so this is gonna be short and not as factual as some other stuff… Whether or not Philedelphia is named directly after this or not: 1. Egyptian royalty (though Macedonian in heritage) always married siblings, half or full. 2. Ancient Greeks tended towards homosexuality. So no matter which way you look at it, it’s got SOME kind of connotation… whether it’s the Egyptian kind OR the Greek kind of “brotherly love”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philadelphia-named-for-an-incestuous-relationship/27824.md?page=2)