# Philly swimming pool kicks out black kids, "doesn't allow minorities" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355 "2009-07-08T19:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/201 "2009-07-09T18:11:27Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I wonder if there is any kind of boycott or protest happening at the original club. Given my recollections of Northeast Philly, there is probably a street parade being held for the members. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/202 "2009-07-09T18:18:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > We know this? How, exactly? > No, they could not say “whites only.” I don’t need to be a lawyer to tell you that the fig leaf of membership doesn’t suffice as a shield for discrimination when you’re open to _doing business_ with everyone except persons of some racial, ethnic, religious, or gender group. I agree with you. However, there’s some history behind it I find interesting. Sam’s Club used to require membership in one of a number of other categories (government employee, self-employed, can’t remember what-all else) to be eligible for membership. I got my (now long expired) membership on the basis of having a Discover Card. The categories of membership seemed well-designed to discriminate\* against the poor (not illegal), and possibly against minorities (illegal unless truly a private club). There was a certain irony in a discount club discriminating against the poor. I’m not sure whether legal risk or the color of money drove their change to only require payment for membership. - By discriminate here I don’t mean completely bar people below a certain income level, but more like create barriers to membership that disproportionately impact the poor. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/203 "2009-07-09T18:27:04Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Well, I still think the club members are total dicks, but personally speaking I somewhat prefer indoor pools, just because you don’t have to worry about sunburn. This. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/204 "2009-07-09T18:36:35Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > This article has a bit more info: > [http://www.philly.com/philly/news/50346612.html](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/50346612.html) some comments on this article > [@](#): > > "When camp parent Christine Templeton’s son, Jabriel Brown, 11, heard the word “complexion,” he got teary-eyed. > > “He’s dark-skinned,” she said. He wondered “if he had the wrong skin color to go into the pool. He will never forget this.”" Give. me. a. fucking. break. And crack open a Webster’s. Oh, shit - Webster was the name of a 1980’s sitcom about a black adopted kid. I guess the PC police will have to issue a citation. > [@](#): > > So, maybe race, for some members, has nothing to do with why Creative Steps was kicked out. > > Maybe they’re just greedy. > > Maybe they’re just too greedy to give up 90 minutes per week - just 90 lousy minutes - to make 65 children happy for the summer. > > Maybe they’re too greedy to say, “This camp thing isn’t working the way we’d hoped. But let’s ride it out, just for this year.” > > Y’know, for the kids. who gives a flying fuck about their greed? or placating “65 children” as if they’re a special group of humans. Does this author really believe that Augusta is “too greedy” to disallow nonmembers from playing on their course (except during the masters)? for real? this is the best she can close with? ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/205 "2009-07-09T18:49:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If it was just about the numbers, why would the club cancel their memberships? > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > That’s right buddy, bear down, keep those heels dug in, let the righteous anger well up within you. > [@not\_alice](#): > > … > So the point is, short term spikes in demand can wreak havoc with staffing, regardless of intentions. But if you open the gates, you have to deal with it. The way to solve that is to monitor at the gate before people are in, and maybe to slightly dampen demand, or at least peaks by noting via policy on the web and elsewhere, including at the gate, that management intends to not allow more people in than they are presently staffed for. > > No way you can blame the failure to manage staffing well, or to manage the crowd so it matches staffing levels on the kids. They just represent a peak in demand. It is management’s job to handle those gracefully when they occur, and they have or at least had graceful options available to them. this happens routinely at clubs, restaurants, stores, pretty much anyplace where crowds come and go. It is not rocket science. Yeah, what she said. If this issue was really that they couldn’t handle that many kids at one time, the smart, customer service-type, retain that $1800 thing to do would be the explain that they had rules about how many kids could be in the pool at a time and the need for adult supervision, and then booked times for the kids’ group to come back in smaller numbers. That they couldn’t offer this basic exchange means either they were racist fucks, and incredibly incompetent. And subsequent info seems to indicate the former (if not the club, then the membership). ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/206 "2009-07-09T18:50:37Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > Yeah, what she said. If this issue was really that they couldn’t handle that many kids at one time, the smart, customer service-type, retain that $1800 thing to do would be the explain that they had rules about how many kids could be in the pool at a time and the need for adult supervision, and then booked times for the kids’ group to come back in smaller numbers. > > That they couldn’t offer this basic exchange means either they were racist fucks, and incredibly incompetent. And subsequent info seems to indicate the former (if not the club, then the membership). It’s a day camp, right? Whacha gonna do with the other 2/3 of the campers when one set of them is in the pool. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/207 "2009-07-09T19:02:43Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > who gives a flying fuck about their greed? or placating “65 children” as if they’re a special group of humans. Does this author really believe that Augusta is “too greedy” to disallow nonmembers from playing on their course (except during the masters)? for real? this is the best she can close with? I don’t recall Augusta accepting money from 60 nonmembers to play and then tossing them out when the members decided integration was fine in principle but not really something they were into… ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/208 "2009-07-09T19:11:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t recall Augusta accepting money from 60 nonmembers to play and then tossing them out when the members decided integration was fine in principle but not really something they were into… That isn’t what she’s saying. Her point was some amalgamation of “well what about the children. the poor children!” and some neo-communist drivel that finds it reprehensible that private property owners can choose to do whatever the hell they want within the bounds of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/209 "2009-07-09T19:15:56Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > This article has a bit more info: > [http://www.philly.com/philly/news/50346612.html](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/50346612.html) > > According to the camp’s director > 1) > The club was signed up to visit the club for 90 minutes a week. > 2) > The club’s board approved the camp being there. A first for the club. > 3) > The president (who made the complexion remark) was present and heard what members said and was embarrassed. > 4) > The members overruled the board’s decision over the protests of the club president. So we know they didn’t show up unannounced, and if there weren’t enough lifeguards the pool had no one but themselves to blame. I’d love to see the bylaws of the pool. How did the members overrule the board? Was there a pool meeting, and a vote? How did this happen so quickly? There are usually rules about time between calling a meeting and having it. Or were the members a subset of noisy bigots? There seems to be no claims that the kids were misbehaving. No one seemed to be saying that the pool was overcrowded. Very curious. The article did say that the camp paid on-line, but I suspect that this was easier for the pool, since they didn’t have to have an independent credit card account but could use PayPal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/210 "2009-07-09T19:17:16Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > That isn’t what she’s saying. Her point was some amalgamation of “well what about the children. the poor children!” and some neo-communist drivel that finds it reprehensible that private property owners can choose to do whatever the hell they want within the bounds of the law. Well, there’s a small problem with that, which is that by selling daily admissions they’re no longer functioning as a private club and are no longer within the bounds of the law when they toss out 60 kids for being the wrong color. On the other hand, that article makes the club president sound like much less of a douche, so I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the “complexion” thing now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/211 "2009-07-09T19:18:43Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > Yeah, what she said. If this issue was really that they couldn’t handle that many kids at one time, the smart, customer service-type, retain that $1800 thing to do would be the explain that they had rules about how many kids could be in the pool at a time and the need for adult supervision, and then booked times for the kids’ group to come back in smaller numbers. As far as adult supervision is concerned, [this Philadelphia Inquirer article](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20090709_Montco_swim_club_accused_of_racial_discrimination.html) says there were 8 adults from the day camp supervising the 60 kids. I don’t know what sorts of ratios are normal, but that’s one adult per 7.5 kids, which seems to me to be a reasonable amount of adult supervision, at least for when they’re out of the pool. I have no idea what contemporary standards are for how many lifeguards are needed per how many swimmers. When I was a kid, our community pool, which would have several dozen kids in it for most of the afternoon most days, had one lifeguard on duty at any given time, but a lot of things were considered OK back then that would get you into big trouble now, so that doesn’t mean much. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/212 "2009-07-09T19:19:22Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Her point was some amalgamation of “well what about the children. the poor children!” and some neo-communist drivel that finds it reprehensible that private property owners can choose to do whatever the hell they want within the bounds of the law. Problem is, of course, that “private property ownership” is not the same thing as running a “private club” under the law. Any restaurant owner is a “private property owner” in the sense that they and they alone own the restaurant, but the law is pretty rigid that they provide “public accommodation.” Point being, “private property owners” who provide public accommodation cannot “choose to do whatever they hell they want” if that includes racial discrimination." I don’t think it’s “neo-communist drivel” to argue that, and unless you have a legitimate challenge to the interpretation of PA law I cited earlier in this thread, I think it’s ignorant _not_ to. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/213 "2009-07-09T19:20:57Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > It’s a day camp, right? Whacha gonna do with the other 2/3 of the campers when one set of them is in the pool. What they do with them the other 38.5 hours a week. Running the bus twice would be a pain, no doubt, but there is no evidence this was an issue for the board. If it had turned out to be an issue, do you think the day camp would have objected to splitting up the hours. The members might, because the pool would be polluted twice as long in their view. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/214 "2009-07-09T19:24:58Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > That isn’t what she’s saying. Her point was some amalgamation of “well what about the children. the poor children!” and some neo-communist drivel that finds it reprehensible that private property owners can choose to do whatever the hell they want within the bounds of the law. And I thought Lester Maddox was dead. You just echoed the argument of just about every racist piece of trash who wanted to keep them black people out of their lily-white restaurants. Kicking minority children out for being a minority is not within the bounds of the law as I understand it. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/215 "2009-07-09T19:25:18Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > This. I am sure the inner city kids will be thrilled to be in a college gym, and kids that age will have fun no matter what, and I hope the campus is nice and the idea of being there or somewhere like it rubs off on them. But I am also sure the irony of not being able to go out in the sun in the summer like the rich folks in “that” neighborhood will not be lost on them. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/216 "2009-07-09T19:25:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And I thought Lester Maddox was dead. You just echoed the argument of just about every racist piece of trash who wanted to keep them black people out of their lily-white restaurants. Is this the anti “Won’t somebody please think of the children” appeal? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/217 "2009-07-09T19:26:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > On the other hand, that article makes the club president sound like much less of a douche, so I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the “complexion” thing now. It sounds like he’s a chickenshit, just not a racist chickenshit. He also has a poor turn of phrase. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/218 "2009-07-09T19:28:23Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > It’s a day camp, right? Whacha gonna do with the other 2/3 of the campers when one set of them is in the pool. Way up thread I showed that 60 kids fit in the pool. And if you are short lifeguard, you let them use some other facilities on the 10 acre park like grounds. Sheesh. and, just so people know, not\_alice is not “she” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/219 "2009-07-09T19:37:48Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > It’s a day camp, right? Whacha gonna do with the other 2/3 of the campers when one set of them is in the pool. Relevance? What to do with the other 2/3 of the campers is the province of the people running the day camp. It’s not really a concern for the people running the pool. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/220 "2009-07-09T19:39:03Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I am sure the inner city kids will be thrilled to be in a college gym, and kids that age will have fun no matter what, and I hope the campus is nice and the idea of being there or somewhere like it rubs off on them. > > But I am also sure the irony of not being able to go out in the sun in the summer like the rich folks in “that” neighborhood will not be lost on them. How are we defining inner city here? These kids are from Northeast Philly. Which, is not as fancy or tree filled as Huntingdon Valley is still a bit further up from what most consider the “inner city” Also, Girard College is not a college as we normally think of it but a K-12 boarding school for low income families. Further. I grew up in NE Philly. I left after graduating high school. But, things must have change drastically from the time Philster is talking about to when I was there. I never even heard of a new black family moving in and requiring 24 hour police presence. There is surely a racist tinge here and there and it’s predominantly white - but I never found it as bad as he described. Which is why this story especially shocked me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355.md?page=12)