# Philly swimming pool kicks out black kids, "doesn't allow minorities" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355 "2009-07-08T19:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/361 "2009-07-13T18:16:55Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > But if this pans out without further drama, it is a good first step of contrition that the club can use to attract others so that they can show they have sincerely changed their ways. :rolleyes: I guess you wrote “assuming the club did anything racist in the first place” in invisible ink in that post? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/362 "2009-07-13T18:20:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: I guess you wrote “assuming the club did anything racist in the first place” in invisible ink in that post? No dude, you can’t spin it your way - if you actually read the visible ink, I predicted near the top of the thread that an arrangement would be reached without admission of wrong doing by the club. Sorry, better luck next time. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/363 "2009-07-13T18:26:04Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > No dude, you can’t spin it your way - if you actually read the visible ink, I predicted near the top of the thread that an arrangement would be reached without admission of wrong doing by the club. > > Sorry, better luck next time. What did you mean by "_it is a good first step of contrition that the club can use to attract others so that they can show they have sincerely changed their ways"_? What ways could they show as changed if they don’t admit to them? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/364 "2009-07-13T18:32:01Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > What did you mean by "_it is a good first step of contrition that the club can use to attract others so that they can show they have sincerely changed their ways"_? What ways could they show as changed if they don’t admit to them? They acknowledge the contracts were breached which is already common knowledge. Internally, they accept that they are signaling that people are free to interpret the rest of it the way they want to, and they are free to deny it. This is standard practice when resolving disputes out of court. I won’t be drawn into a debate about it. It is how people mutually agree to allow the other side to save face while moving on to resolving matters. google “without admission of wrongdoing” for 370 or so examples. ETA: As I noted way upthread, the real resolution is the outcome of the makeup of the club’s members in the future. If everyone is satisfied with that, then it is fine to have a tacit agreement to not beat anyone up about the past. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/365 "2009-07-13T18:34:22Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > They acknowledge the contracts were breached which is already common knowledge. > > Internally, they accept that they are signaling that people are free to interpret the rest of it the way they want to, and they are free to deny it. Which of these involves contrition? Which involves attracting others? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/366 "2009-07-13T18:36:26Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Which of these involves contrition? Which involves attracting others? You figure it out, I am sure you are smart enough. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/367 "2009-07-13T18:38:19Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > You figure it out, I am sure you are smart enough. If you are just going to be a smartass and not explain yourself when asked politely, why bother responding at all? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/368 "2009-07-13T18:45:54Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If you are just going to be a smartass and not explain yourself when asked politely, why bother responding at all? Frankly, I am not sure you are not being a smartass. I am not seeing anything but one liners from you, no evidence that you attempted to figure it out on your own, or even confirm my claim that this is standard negotiating settlement practice, let alone have read and understood my lengthy posts upstream. Or understood the part where I said “I will not be drawn into a debate about this”. Your username is not helping you in this case 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/369 "2009-07-13T21:50:38Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Frankly, I am not sure you are not being a smartass. > > I am not seeing anything but one liners from you, no evidence that you attempted to figure it out on your own So? I asked you to explain it. Do you want me to understand or not? > [@](#): > > or even confirm my claim that this is standard negotiating settlement practice, let alone have read and understood my lengthy posts upstream. I have no questions about whether it is standard negotiating practice. > [@](#): > > Or understood the part where I said “I will not be drawn into a debate about this.” So your position is that you feel entitled to make assertions that must go unquestioned? Feel free, but don’t be surprised when others disagree. > [@](#): > > Your username is not helping you in this case 🙂 I think of it as a musical term (see Bach) but if you think of it [like this](http://www.yourdictionary.com/contrapuntal), I again wonder why you believe yourself to be immune from counterpoint. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/370 "2009-07-13T22:21:02Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > No dude, you can’t spin it your way - if you actually read the visible ink, I predicted near the top of the thread that an arrangement would be reached without admission of wrong doing by the club. > > Sorry, better luck next time. So, if you dont admit your guilty…you are guilty? Catch 22 genius! ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/371 "2009-07-13T23:29:50Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So? I asked you to explain it. Do you want me to understand or not? Honestly, if you can’t understand it or even explain what it is you don’t get, no, I don’t give a fuck whether you get it or not. I have no questions about whether it is standard negotiating practice. > [@](#): > > So your position is that you feel entitled to make assertions that must go unquestioned? Feel free, but don’t be surprised when others disagree. sure, the same people who have gone on for 400 posts or whatever without making any sort of prediction about the actual outcome like I did. Few cared enough to comment on my detailed predictions when I made them, why would I care if they pipe up now to disagree after I turned out to be pretty close? > [@](#): > > I think of it as a musical term (see Bach) but if you think of it [like this](http://www.yourdictionary.com/contrapuntal), I again wonder why you believe yourself to be immune from counterpoint. Didn’t know enough about music to know the term, thanks for sharing. I alwasy thought of it in the other sense. I am not immune to counter point - I asked throughout for people to counter my prediction with their own. You can rant about how you don’t understand, but if you don’t make sense, then who gives a shit? And frankly, in this thread, in the pit, that has been the level of most of the discourse anyway, and I tried to rise above and give a predicted outcome and explain why. Read my posts again and again until you get it, the answers to your questions now are already there, or between the lines. If that is not enough, then maybe your local community college will have “negotiating for business 101” or something similar - take that course and then come back if you still don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/372 "2009-07-13T23:31:00Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, if you dont admit your guilty…you are guilty? > > Catch 22 genius! You did read the google search I mentioned, right? ---
**Author:** ![GraceTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@GraceTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GraceTX)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/373 "2009-07-14T14:07:29Z")
[Day care rejects invitation to return to pool.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/14/pennsylvania.pool.problems/index.html) > [@](#): > > “Parents, do you want your children to return to the Valley Swim Club?” Alethea Wright of Creative Steps asked parents who attended a news briefing with her Monday. When none of them raised their hands, Wright said, “As you can see, the vote is unanimous.” > [@](#): > > Attorneys for the day care center said they will sue the swim club in a few days. > [@](#): > > The day care center also wants the resignation of all swim club board members and the removal of any club members who made the racist comments, Nichols said. There aren’t enough eyerolls in the world for that last bit. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/374 "2009-07-14T14:13:24Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > The swim club’s [website](http://www.thevalleyclub.com/)has been updated: DAMN! This club \*is \*exclusive! When I tried to use the link I got an ‘Error 403’ message telling me that I am “forbidden” to access thier site. I am a middle class White guy and I can’t even _look_ at the site. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/375 "2009-07-14T18:06:20Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Honestly, if you can’t understand it or even explain what it is you don’t get, no, I don’t give a fuck whether you get it or not. I thought I put it simply enough. Here it is again. [QUOTE=Me] Which of these involves contrition? Which involves attracting others? [/QUOTE] I honestly and truthfully don’t get. Help me out here. Is this one the one about contrition? > [@](#): > > They acknowledge the contracts were breached which is already common knowledge. Is this one the one about attracting others? > [@](#): > > Internally, they accept that they are signaling that people are free to interpret the rest of it the way they want to, and they are free to deny it. I don’t see it, but the other way around makes no sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/376 "2009-07-14T19:10:57Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I thought I put it simply enough. Here it is again. > > I honestly and truthfully don’t get. Help me out here. Is this one the one about contrition? > > Is this one the one about attracting others? > > I don’t see it, but the other way around makes no sense at all. Like I said, take a class that teaches negotiating 101 and then get back to me. You are asking me the equivalent of if 1 + 1 = 2 and you haven’t proved you did anything besides ask the same question repeatedly. Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/377 "2009-07-14T19:48:30Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Like I said, take a class that teaches negotiating 101 and then get back to me. You are asking me the equivalent of if 1 + 1 = 2 and you haven’t proved you did anything besides ask the same question repeatedly. Yawn. Because you refuse to answer them. And it would be very easy to do so. So I am left to assume that you simply can’t. Just answer the questions. What are you afraid of? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/378 "2009-07-14T20:00:01Z")
Dude (or dudette, I don’t know which), thi sis the Pit. If you want answers to general negotiating tactics in settling potential lawsuits, then I suggest GQ. As for being left to not understand, too bad. It is the pit. Virtually every thread in the Pit has some nuance I don’t understand, do I cry about it? No, and neither should you. You could tell me I don’t understand what I say, that would be coming from someone who admits _you_ don’t understand what I say, about something I already wrote about in depth at the top of the thread. Maybe some of the legal eagles on this thread will come back and teach you. But I don’t have the time or the interest to do so when you still have not shown that you have done 5 seconds work to look into what I already pointed you towards. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/379 "2009-07-15T14:31:27Z")
It appears that a [lawsuit](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20090715_Lawsuit_cost_could_overwhelm_Valley_Club_1.html) is a foregone conclusion. > [@](#): > > One lawsuit was filed Friday by a parent, and Creative Steps executive director Alethea Wright and dozens of other parents said at a news conference Monday that a second discrimination suit was coming. I love the quote from the appellant lawyer (who will likely make a boatload in the settlement) > [@](#): > > “The outrage of having to go through this, with an African American president in 2009 - we don’t take this kind of stuff lightly in America anymore…” Great lesson to teach your kids: “when wronged, sue the fuckers…” ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/380 "2009-07-15T14:46:13Z")
> [@phungi](#): > > I love the quote from the appellant lawyer (who will likely make a boatload in the settlement) I assume you mean plaintiff’s lawyer. And you should also read the article, because I doubt he will make a dime off this case… > [@](#): > > “The outrage of having to go through this, with an African American president in 2009 - we don’t take this kind of stuff lightly in America anymore,” said Montgomery County civil-rights lawyer Brian Wiley, **who is not involved in the case lawsuit.** (emphasis added). > [@phungi](#): > > Great lesson to teach your kids: “when wronged, sue the fuckers…” What is wrong with that lesson? Teaching kids that the law is there to protect people, and that no one is above the law? Or that the law, rather than griping on a message board, or sucking it up, or other methods is a way of resolving disputes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355.md?page=20)