# Philly swimming pool kicks out black kids, "doesn't allow minorities" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355 "2009-07-08T19:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/81 "2009-07-08T22:33:46Z")
By odd coincidence, earlier today I was idly thinking about how the smell of road tar on a hot summer day evokes a memory from day camp when I was 8 - and a bunch of us campers were walking in a group down a country road on the way to a swimming pool. A couple living in the area had rented out their nice full-size pool for the day camp’s use. I have wondered since why they would have tolerated all us kids in their pool. I mean, we were all white but still kind of icky. I guess maybe they needed the money. And I’ll bet this Philadelphia club has fallen on hard times and needed the dough too, which is why they contracted with the day camp (“But…but…we didn’t know how it would _look_, with all of _those people_ here at once.”). I doubt this dust-up is going to help their bottom line. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/82 "2009-07-08T22:40:15Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Don’t be absurd. Day camps don’t pay full price for things like this. They get group discounts. So they talked to someone there. And they probably wouldn’t pay with a credit card anyway. And it seems a bit odd that someone at the club would accept payment of $1900 dollars without bothering to check what was coming their way. If the club didn’t have any idea what was coming, they’re very poorly managed or incredibly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/83 "2009-07-08T22:44:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > No doubt at all. A few black kids, that could be innocent playtime, but 60 or more at once is a raging mob, hell-bent on destroying the NE Philadelphia way of life.Of course, everyone here says that, and certainly you can provide plenty of examples. Not to split hairs. But, the kids were from NE Philly the swim club is in Huntingdon Valley, PA. So, they were trying to import the wild NE Philadelphia way of life to the poor suburban H Valley dwellers. I can see why the president would be up in arms! This story is so absurd is seems made up. Really? Complexion? You thought that was the appropriate word to use? Damn. Racist, tone deaf and idiotic! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/84 "2009-07-08T22:48:07Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > They may not have known. You can sign up from the website. Click ‘WeekDay Membership’, enter ‘60’ in the the number of child memberships, give them a credit card number, and you are done. Is this a hypothetical, or can you actually do that on their website? Because if you can, their claim to being a private club and thus allowed to discriminate went right out the window. But that’s not how it happened in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/85 "2009-07-08T22:50:08Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > A minor suggestion, in good faith? If you can’t participate fully in a thread, consider whether you should be participating in it. Oh, now, now, **RR** is too busy being, ahem, a lawyer.\* Let’s pass over in silence the fact that he made a remark that suggests a surprising ignorance of the place of public accommodation concept, which is a chestnut of Constitutional Law curricula throughout the country. - a/k/a paralegal in the tax practice group at Sullivan & Cromwell? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/86 "2009-07-08T23:03:42Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > What do you have in mind? They breached. They refunded the money. Are you suggesting there are more _actual_ damages aside from the $1,900? If they have to pay more to get the same camp elsewhere, those would be forseeable damages. Too, the camp could assert that, if it has to refund the money paid to it by those attending, then the lost revenue from that camp could be considered forseeable damages, especially since the contract was cancelled mid-camp. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/87 "2009-07-08T23:04:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Just for the record, Cypress Point now has black members. Cite?? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/88 "2009-07-08T23:10:14Z")
It would be interesting to find out how often the club holds itself out as available for use by the general public. It will also be interesting to find out how “selective” the membership is. Perhaps anyone can apply, but only the “white” people are admitted. ---
**Author:** ![imack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a9a28c/32.png) [@imack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imack)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/89 "2009-07-08T23:10:28Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > That “a lot” of kids would change the complexion and atmosphere of the club. Not “black kids” would. Also, reporters are pretty well known for misquoting people. I’ve been quoted in newspaper articles many times and the majority of the time what they said I said wasn’t even close. LOL!! Are you seriously implying that complexion could mean anything other than skin complexion (ie black)? What other “complexion” could he be referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/90 "2009-07-08T23:12:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Just for the record, Cypress Point now has black members. Suppressing any number of Caddyshack references. Hey, this is Philly. If Frank Rizzo were still mayor, the kids would have been arrested, beaten, and thrown out of a moving Police van in Fishtown. We might well regard this story as progress. ☹ Real damages? The $ 1900 was refunded. PUNITIVE damages? All depends on which A.D.A. gets the case in Philly. Cartooniverse, who grew up in Mt. Airy during the reign…er…term of Rizzo. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/91 "2009-07-08T23:12:28Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > If they have to pay more to get the same camp elsewhere, those would be forseeable damages. > > Too, the camp could assert that, if it has to refund the money paid to it by those attending, then the lost revenue from that camp could be considered forseeable damages, especially since the contract was cancelled mid-camp. Consider it this way: Suppose I am a scientist who has been awarded a $300 thousand research grant. And let’s say the terms of the grant require me to submit some routine documentation by some given deadline to the awarding foundation before disbursement. If this documentation is submitted, the money is disbursed; that is, the award is not contingent on the contents of the documentation, only the receipt of the documentation. You are a courier and I explain all this to you. I then inform you that the awarding foundation is in the same town as you and me, and that the deadline is tomorrow at noon. I ask you to deliver the documentation, already prepared and packaged, by the deadline. You tell me you will do so for $20. I accept and give you the package. The next day, at five minutes to noon, you come by and say, “I’ve decided that I won’t be performing. Here’s your package–and the twenty bucks–back.” What do you contend the measure of damages is? Restitutionary (_i.e._, $20)? Or expectation/consequential (_i.e.,_ closer to $300K)? ETA: Obviously not directed at **DSYoungEsq** , but his/her interlocutor. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/92 "2009-07-08T23:15:31Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > Not to split hairs. But, the kids were from NE Philly the swim club is in Huntingdon Valley, PA. So, they were trying to import the wild NE Philadelphia way of life to the poor suburban H Valley dwellers. I can see why the president would be up in arms! > > This story is so absurd is seems made up. Really? Complexion? You thought that was the appropriate word to use? Damn. Racist, tone deaf and idiotic! Oh my. I hadn’t seen this when I posted. Good lord. I know Huntingdon Valley quite well. I lived next township over for most of my childhood. Family STILL there off of Meetinghouse Road… Plenty of black folk there. Of course, they’re all driving trucks and cooking and doing the pool.. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/93 "2009-07-08T23:22:34Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > What do you contend the measure of damages is? Restitutionary (i.e., $20)? Or expectation/consequential (i.e., closer to $300K)? Sometimes I think these threads are just planted for lawyers to review first-year curriculum. This whole thread is like a bad MBE question on _Palmer v. Thompson_ and _Hadley v. Baxendale_. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/94 "2009-07-08T23:31:30Z")
_:: Disclaimer :: I am setting aside the potential civil rights violations and focussing solely on the breach of contract claim mentioned upthread to address what I think to be the wholly incorrect belief held by some of you that the club will have it’s lunch eaten on said claim:: Disclaimer ::_ [QUOTE=villa] The standard for contract damages isn’t restitution, the return of the money, it is reliance. In other words, the breaching party should pay to put the breached party in the position for which it contracted. Hence the $1,900 may well nto cover it. The club should pay for the contracting party to have access to an equally good pool for the same time period, which may, at this stage of the summer, cost sigificantly more. It is a shame the courts cannot operate quickly enough, because this is the sort of situation where specific performance seems to be a good remedy to me. [/QUOTE] In this case, it is largely a distinction without a difference. There is no one exclusive method for the measure of damages arising form the breach of contract. If I am wrong under Penn law, I would gladly accept a cite. In many instances, restitution is an appropriate award. In a contract like this, where there are no foreseeable consequential damages (like lost profits), in all likelihood resitution (cost of club membership) would equal a “benefit of the bargain” award (cost of membership at a similar club). Specific performance is a very limitted remedy available where the benefit of the contract is so unique that a monetary award is insufficient. It would be ridiculous here. The camp needs to price out comparabel pools, join a pool, and sue the club for any difference if there is one. If they don’t do that, then they get $1,900 on a breach of contract claim. > [@not\_alice](#): > > I am sure their attorney will make such a case should he ever be dumb enough to let it get to a jury. And he will get his lunch promptly handed back to him. > > Aside form the racist aspect of it, the whole point of a contract is to obligate to perform, and for someone else to be able to rely on it. Necessary consideration was exchanged, and the execution of the contract was underway -the kids were already there! I am guessing there was no violation of the contract on the camp or kid’s part, and so the club doesn’t get to unilaterally cancel it. If nothing else, the camp has opportunity costs in that had the camp negotiated and then executed terms it thought it might need, and the camp agreed to them, then the camp could have found an alternate place before the hot day You’ve just explained a breach of contract case. There was an agreement; it wasn’t honored. This is hardly unique in this aspect. > [@not\_alice](#): > > Sorry, this is going to cost the club big time. > > I doubt it will get to court, it will be settled without admission of guilt, but I stand by my prediction that one likely outcome that will minimize the direct costs to the club will be to partner, both in ownership and operation, with the camp moving forward. > > Risking a jury award would be stupid in this case - the club will surely lose everything. Oh maybe they appeal it out for a while, but then they end up with the same settlement, years of bad publicity, and legal bills for both sides. I doubt it “will cost the club big time” in the way that you’re prediciting (i.e. on a “breach of contract” claim). A lot would happen before a jury was even selected and even once done, the jury is charged to follow the law. The damages here are small (small claims, small). See above. This isn’t a retirement case. Curious, do you have a legal education? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/95 "2009-07-08T23:38:46Z")
> [@imack](#): > > LOL!! > > Are you seriously implying that complexion could mean anything other than skin complexion (ie black)? > > What other “complexion” could he be referring to? dude, crack a fucking book: com⋅plex⋅ion  /kəmˈplɛkʃən/ –noun 1. appearance; _aspect; character_: His confession put a different complexion on things. A bunch of screaming kids outnumbering adults 10 to 1 changes the “complexion” of a family pool where the ratio is normally closer to 2 or 3 to 1. I am not defedning this douchebag club, but for chrissakes, recognize that he might have employed the beatuiful nuance of our language. I doubt this guy was saying the inner-city kids would give the club acne, either. ---
**Author:** ![imack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a9a28c/32.png) [@imack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imack)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/96 "2009-07-08T23:49:41Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > dude, crack a fucking book: > > com⋅plex⋅ion  /kəmˈplɛkʃən/ –noun > > 1. appearance; _aspect; character_: His confession put a different complexion on things. > A bunch of screaming kids outnumbering adults 10 to 1 changes the “complexion” of a family pool where the ratio is normally closer to 2 or 3 to 1. I am not defedning this douchebag club, but for chrissakes, recognize that he might have employed the beatuiful nuance of our language. I doubt this guy was saying the inner-city kids would give the club acne, either. Don’t be silly. You know he meant the racial makeup of the club. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/97 "2009-07-08T23:52:20Z")
> [@imack](#): > > Don’t be silly. You know he meant the racial makeup of the club. Why not just say, “We don’t want any darkies.”? If he meant what you say he meant, it was no less subtle. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/98 "2009-07-08T23:53:39Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Don’t be absurd. Day camps don’t pay full price for things like this. They get group discounts. So they talked to someone there. And they probably wouldn’t pay with a credit card anyway. Don’t be absurd. Per their own website, even an All Summer Weekday Membership is $30 per child. At 60 kids, that’s $1800. Throw in some chaperones, and I’m not seeing much of a group discount. This group may have very well booked and paid online. Not that it matters, I’m just saying that they may not have talked to someone there beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/99 "2009-07-08T23:55:51Z")
The club has made no assertion, nor has anyone else, that the kids were misbehaving. If that was the case, the president could have said so. The suggestion that they were unprepared for the numbers also doesn’t fly becuse they already had to have known what the numbers would be when they contracted with the camp. I think the suggestion that all the kids could be conspiring to lie is absurd in the extreme. I used to run summer day camps in the Frogtown neighborhood of St. Paul I took van loads of kids swimming all the time. They were majority black. A few had behavioral issues, most did not. It would have been impossible to get them all together to conspire on a story like this that had no truth to it. Geting them all to _remember_ a story and stick to it is one thing, but an even bigger obstacle is that most of them are fundamentally honest. The suggestion that the kids are all lying is asinine, and is indicative to me of someone who has never worked with large groups of kids. It’s also a suggestion would NEVER be made about white kids. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/100 "2009-07-08T23:58:37Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Who says they booked them? It’s a club. You sign up for a membership and show up when ever you like. The contract was not for membership, rather for a one-time-only visit. Hence the term “booked”. ETA: By “membership” I mean “lifetime membership” or similar arrangement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355.md?page=6)