# Philly swimming pool kicks out black kids, "doesn't allow minorities" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355 "2009-07-08T19:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/121 "2009-07-09T02:25:18Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > A minor suggestion, in good faith? If you can’t participate fully in a thread, consider whether you should be participating in it. Buddy, I could participate more fully in a thread than you will ever be able to with half my brain tied around your wife’s cratered thighs. So fuck right the fuck off please, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/122 "2009-07-09T02:40:04Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I can’t afford a dictionary, and my employer is too niggardly to provide one at my desk. That incident is one of my all-time favorites in describing how insensitive we have become with the nuance of our language. Especially rich was some professorial talking head claiming, after everyone involved had issued their mea culpas, that he still shouldn’t have used the word, because, for some odd reason, the utilizer of a proper word in the english language has to somehow be a guarantor of sensitivity upon its use. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/123 "2009-07-09T02:53:58Z")
I’ll share another interpretation of the events: I have a pool in my area. I use it. I only go to the pool when there is a “low enough” ratio of kids to adults (no, i don’t count - it’s just a general back-of-the-envelope assessment). If I’m at the pool and the ratio gets out of whack (read: there are a shit ton of annoying, loud kids), I leave. If I were paying for a club and I was being displaced because my club allowed/accidentally allowed 60 children into the pool that I was spending my time at, I’d raise cain. And if it were a posh enough club (btw, this one’s website looks like it serves the local trailer park crowd, and what is up with this open membership garbage anyways?) I could very easily see the manager-on-duty asking the heretofore duly-admitted group of children to hit the road. The guy may have had an unfortunate use of the word “complexion” but once you exclude all of the hearsay that’s been bandied around this story there’s not a whole lot more to suggest that they were excluded based on their race. correlation does not imply causation. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/124 "2009-07-09T03:08:34Z")
Can Sam’s club exclude anyone they want from shopping there because they have a membership required to shop there? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/125 "2009-07-09T03:17:36Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > The guy may have had an unfortunate use of the word “complexion” but once you exclude all of the hearsay that’s been bandied around this story there’s not a whole lot more to suggest that they were excluded based on their race. correlation does not imply **causation**. I tend to agree this may well be a case of poor planning and communication on both sides part more than anything else. But you mispelled caucasian 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/126 "2009-07-09T03:26:44Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > It’s a private club, and they gave the money back. Er, I don’t think you can just automagically banish a contract into it-never-happened-land by offering a refund, unless the contract specifically says so. Presumably if this contract did specifically say so, the club would raise that point in its own defense. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/127 "2009-07-09T03:28:09Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Er, I don’t think you can just automagically banish a contract into it-never-happened-land by offering a refund, unless the contract specifically says so. Presumably if this contract did specifically say so, the club would raise that point in its own defense. Efficient breach, hello? ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/128 "2009-07-09T03:31:15Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Buddy, I could participate more fully in a thread than you will ever be able to with half my brain tied around your wife’s cratered thighs. So fuck right the fuck off please, thanks. I.e., “I don’t have an answer.” Again, care to discuss the law here? ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/129 "2009-07-09T03:32:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I read the article. If by saying “ZOMG illegal!! ZOMG!!” any of those posters meant “I would bet that there is a pretty good case that the swimming pool is a public accomodation and not a private club and therefore the discrimination was illegal under Heart of Atlanta and its progeny,” then I take back my rant. But I highly doubt they thought that. I’m fairly certain many people think that discrimination by a private club that is truly a private club is or should be illegal. So, in other words, they were right, but you have to be right too because _their motives were wrong_. BS. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/130 "2009-07-09T03:38:32Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Efficient breach, hello? Well, that’s not exactly how it works. Efficient breach is only economically efficient if you pay the injured party _expectation_ damages, rather than merely restitutionary damages (the refund). Recall, a reallocation is Pareto efficient only if everyone remains at least as well off as under the original allocation and someone is made better off. To do this, the original counterparty to the contract must have his/her original expectations satisfied. If the market price for the good has increased, a mere refund will leave the victim of the breach worse-off. (BTW, if the market price decreased, there is no incentive for the good supplier to breach.) Thus, you must pay the injured party’s cover. If you can do this while still earning profit by selling to a third-party, _then_ you will have found a Pareto improvement by breaching the contract. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/131 "2009-07-09T03:42:46Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Well, that’s not exactly how it works. Efficient breach is only economically efficient if you pay the injured party _expectation_ damages, rather than merely restitutionary damages (the refund). > > Recall, a reallocation is Pareto efficient only if everyone remains at least as well off as under the original allocation and someone is made better off. To do this, the original counterparty to the contract must have his/her original expectations satisfied. If the market price for the good has increased, a mere refund will leave the victim of the breach worse-off. (BTW, if the market price decreased, there is no incentive for the good supplier to breach.) Thus, you must pay the injured party’s cover. If you can do this while still earning profit by selling to a third-party, _then_ you will have found a Pareto improvement by breaching the contract. I’m just sayin that “acting as if you don’t have a contract no mo” isn’t exactly earth shattering jurisprudence. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/132 "2009-07-09T03:43:17Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > It would be interesting to find out how often the club holds itself out as available for use by the general public. > > It will also be interesting to find out how “selective” the membership is. Perhaps anyone can apply, but only the “white” people are admitted. They have banners flying outside their facility, per the video I saw, advertising availability of memberships and of the facility for pool party events. I don’t think they’re holding themselves out to be an exclusive sort of venue. In any case, happy ending for the children for now: [Girard College has given the camp access to their pool for the remainder of the summer](http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Campers-Complexion-No-Problem-for-New-Pool.html). Is there anything as indicative of the freedom and happiness of summertime for kids as the smile of child in the process of jumping into a pool? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/133 "2009-07-09T03:46:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Buddy, I could participate more fully in a thread than you will ever be able to with half my brain tied around your wife’s cratered thighs. So fuck right the fuck off please, thanks. Don’t you have some little boy’s undergarments to sniff? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/134 "2009-07-09T03:51:50Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Wow. **not\_alice** ’s prediction of what will happen in court is breathtaking. Not least for the idea that a breach of contract case will run up a bunch of discovery on club assets and the like. Fishing expedition much? Sorry, not allowed. Too bad you have to allege a complaint in your, well, complaint, and can’t just poke around till you find something. (Hint: even supposedly racist rich people get lawyers!) Sure, in a technical sense. But you don’t think the skeezy lawyer who takes the case won’t be helping the press find out who the members of the club are, the management too? Remember that news stories end up in search engines forever, pretty much always. Heck, that could start happening even without a lawyer. The members won’t like it, and they are probably smart enough to do their best to head it off to minimize bad publicity. I don’t suppose any lawyer will need to do much poking around to find something either, if there are similar incidents alleged in the past, they will find the lawyer, the lawyer won’t have to have much initial cooperation from the club for support of fishing trips. > [@](#): > > Your prediction would go down really well… in Hollywood. Maybe you can get Skeet Ulrich to play the plucky borderline alcoholic lawyer who takes the case, and maybe Sam Jackson can make a little speech about muthafuckin kids in a pool. Gene Hackman can play the rich club president! It’ll be a timeless tale of David v Goliath and make the masses feel good when the plucky camp kids (including the overly-precocious streetwise aspiring rapper who learns to love math) triumph over the fat forces of whiteness. I smell an Oscar! Hmmm. > [@](#): > > (Sadly, in the real world it’s a non-starter and not the kind of thing that’s going to bankrupt the evil club.) Who said anything about bankrupting? Is the settlement I suggested really that unreasonable compared to the risk of unwanted publicity for members and the club alike (not civil suits)? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/135 "2009-07-09T04:08:20Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > 6 - Club, under orders to settle enters negotiations. Maybe they can’t really afford cash up front in the range of 50% of the initial offer where it might land, but they can offer a partnership with the camp so all their kids get a fair chance forever more every year, some stake in the net/gross revenue of the club, some cash for the camp, and cash to pay the legal bills. All in exchange for no admission of wrongdoing and confidentiality of terms of course. Is this something you think would be _fair_? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/136 "2009-07-09T04:18:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Is this something you think would be _fair_? It’s quite obviously a business engaging in interstate commerce\*. Cracker Barrel settled 42 individual suits for less egregious discrimination (seating black patrons only in smoking sections, regardless of their preference) for $8.7 million, and I doubt the club has that much. Is it fair? Probably not - but it’s an awful lot less than their exposure. \*As in, I can book admission for Tuesday from right here in Florida thanks to their handy-dandy online booking and payment system. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/137 "2009-07-09T04:20:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Is this something you think would be _fair_? Depends on which side is paying me to represent them. 🙂 If you asked instead is it just, I’d say that if there is in fact a pattern of discrimination, this would probably rectify it while using the assets of the club and or its members to do some social good, and that may in fact be just. If it turns out the kids were stealing from the candy machine and snapping all the cute girls’ bathing suits, and the manager chased them out when they couldn’t be controlled one step ahead of calling the cops, well, then maybe it would neither be just nor suggested by me as a way it might go down. And to be fair, we haven’t heard from others who were there, including the local members, just one quote from the manager. Still, there seems to be enough smoke to take a look to see if there is fire, and if there is, well… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/138 "2009-07-09T04:39:20Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Ditto. Perhaps seeing 60 “minorities” show up all at once gave them the vapors, hence the new rule. 60 “minorities” ? Never mind. Thats nothing compared to “60 minutes” showing up. Given the racial make up of Philly, it seems rather odd for the club not to have been better prepared to avoid this situation. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/139 "2009-07-09T04:52:35Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Given the racial make up of Philly, it seems rather odd for the club not to have been better prepared to avoid this situation. Maybe it was set up for the precise reason to avoid this situation, but the manager was new and didn’t get the memo yet. [/wild ass speculation and joking] ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355/140 "2009-07-09T04:53:56Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Just what I learned from reading the recent **Stoid** threads 🙂 > > J/K. > > No, IANAL. and I do learn from lawyerly discussions like this here and elsewhere, so thanks for your feedback and sharing so far. > > I do however have a management background, sufficient to gauge the likely risk/reward aspect of a case like this. > > I predict it will go like this: > > 1 - Some local lawyer will see a payday and take it on contingency. This has probably already happened, or is about to real soon now. > > 2 - Lily white club has decision to make: fight what may be a simple breach of contact claim like you say in open court, inviting close scrutiny of the club, its finances, its management and membership, and thier public and possibly private behavior for an extended time in the press, and in court and depositions. Or settle quickly and quietly. > > 3 - Said members are probably upper middle class or high class professionals and their families who are not going to be keen having the press poke around and get their names involved in racist accusations." Oh yeah, before we hire that guy we found on linkedin, let’s google his name one more time. Oh." No one wants that, but it is a foreseeable outcome of an extended fight. > > 4 - Members say to management to settle. Management looks to settle. > > 5 - Lawyer working on contingency smells blood. Eyes spin like a one armed bandit. They stop in the mid 6 figure range, or even low 7 figures if there is evidence that this is ongoing and planned - and those pictures up there now sure don’t look good for the club in this regard. There will be other evidence suggesting that the club is less than accommodating too. The lawyer will make sure of that. No one seriously doubts it is true, and do you really want to argue about how few non-white members you have ever had in open court counselor? I thought not. > > 6 - Club, under orders to settle enters negotiations. Maybe they can’t really afford cash up front in the range of 50% of the initial offer where it might land, but they can offer a partnership with the camp so all their kids get a fair chance forever more every year, some stake in the net/gross revenue of the club, some cash for the camp, and cash to pay the legal bills. All in exchange for no admission of wrongdoing and confidentiality of terms of course. > > 7 - I’ll draw it up counselor. All fine and dandy and it may well turn out thus. But how long do you think the club would stay in business? The white members would leave en masse (look at their sudden exit from the pool when the black kids entered it), another private club would open to fill the gap, and the old club would go bust. The kids would certainly have the satisfaction of putting the place out of business, which is something, but they’d still have nowhere to swim. Philly is Philly (see post above). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/philly-swimming-pool-kicks-out-black-kids-doesnt-allow-minorities/502355.md?page=8)