Philosophy, Physics, Spiritual Types - how many distinct Dimensions of reality?

Your comment makes me think we are understanding the meaning of “identity” and “information” very differently, so differently that I’ll just let that conversation drop here. I will however respond to the “unnecessary and artificial distinction” bit.

A rabbit sees a hawk’s shadow moving across the ground in front of it, experiences, we believe, what can be best called fear, and runs for cover. That informational description is a different level than describing the differing groups of molecules traveling together the exact responses of individual cells and their component parts to different triggers of on the certain surfaces of one of those large groups of molecules traveling together. It is not an unnecessary or artificial distinction; it is a level of analysis of certain utility.

A computer runs a software program and if certain information values are X executes Y. Is that description, relative to describing what exactly is occurring at the hardware level as the program is run, an unnecessary and artificial distinction? If the same software, the same patterns of information processing, is run on different hardware is each better or more usefully described by the physical stuff, or by the information the stuff is processing?

A human mind creates the concept of a perfect circle and from that relationship of its circumference divided by its diameter as a constant which cannot be completely calculated in a decimal system. All information. Yes it could also be characterized as what is occurring within the physical stuff of the brain but is not the information real as well?

If you wish - however, I’m only trying to understand and discuss the points here - no confrontation or conflict was intended (except in the mildest sense of opposing or unmatching ideas)

I agree that the information ‘exists’ in all of these cases, but it emerges from the physical objects in all cases, as far as I can see - none of it has existence in its own right, or could have come into being without the physical stuff.

Yeah, but that’s only because my room is fully occupied by things that are not zebras - such as chairs, the table, molecules of nitrogen, etc - so there’s not ‘nothingness’ here, there’s just a whole room full of ‘stuff-that’s-not-a-zebra-ness’.

I concede that is a category of absence or emptiness, but I don’t feel like that’s the same sort of nothingness that was being discussed above.

I disagree. And so does everyone who subscribes to the Many Worlds interpretation. And again, this is confusing us knowing about something with that thing existing.

I read a few things - Quantum Consciousness? Microtubules? Hmm.

Again, I am appreciating this thread. I would assert that some of this discussion is happening at levels not intended by the OP, but they are clearly related and interesting, so there you go.

I will restate my initial query trying to use DSeid’s definition of Dimension: if a Human takes action, how many Dimensions/“Realms” do we perceive we are accessing, regardless of whether they exist objectively or are illusory?

While the detailed discussions about whether Ideals exist, are just a subset of Info, etc, are important and get to deeper truths, nothing has changed the fact that on an everyday basis, I “sense” that I access Ideals as part of going about my day, and that I use that dimension of thought differently than I use Subjective thoughts - with the most elemental level I can think of being Numbers.

Is the Ideal concept of Numbers just an artifact of culture, or do they transcend the individual and have an independent existence that we all access? For the purposes of my OP question, I am not sure that matters. But, again per Montaigne, what do I know? :wink:

And, per my OP question, there have been suggestions, but so far no other Dimensions, objectively real or illusory, have surfaced as a necessary part of how we engage our reality. Back to pondering.

Do you expect that the answer will be the same for two different people performing the same action? Without an objective (or at least agreed subjective) framework outlining where and how the lines are scribed between one dimension and the next, one person will say they’re interacting with 7 dimensions (Physical objects, memory, intent, language, math, energy, and Apple Pie), whereas another person will say it’s all part of one unified thing.

Aye, there’s the rub. That’s at the heart of my OP: is there a way to summarize this concept - i.e., what Dimensions we engage as part of making decisions - that can work?

The answer is likely No, or that it is purely subjective to the individual. That’s fine by me. So far, though, while I appreciate many of the suggestions about distinct dimensions - especially Apple Pie as you state above!! :wink: - I can’t shake my current thinking.

  • Physical/Material - yes, subcategories exist such as Conscious vs. Inanimate, etc. - but they all factor into the “facts that are in front of me and can be objectively understood and replicated” so I am okay considering them one category.

  • Conscious - no one has really looked to subdivide this, only lump it with Ideals in the Information bucket.

  • Ideals - this has been most of the discussion in the thread. As stated above, I am open to hearing it is illusory, but I am not feeling convinced I should just lump it in with Subjective. Even if Twoness is a “cultural artifact” I “access it differently” (??) as part of my living in the everyday vs. my Subjective thoughts.

Things like Language and Intent represent, to me!!, “overlaps” between those three Realms. Intent is when I take the Objective facts and my Subjective thoughts and run them past the Ideals I hold and then choose how to act.

I think :wink:

Fair enough - sounds like a fun exploration of ideas.

I think it might help to try to draw a sort of phylogenetic tree of everything - kind of a flowchart or organisation diagram to say thing X is entirely beholden to thing Y.

Once that takes shape, maybe some groupings or levels will look obvious within it.

As to the first - I’m not bowing out of discussing it further because of conflict but because I really just have no interest today in an extended debate over the meaning of what I consider the very basic terms and ideas needed for that discussion. It would just become way too tedious and cumbersome way too quickly to have a conversation that is having to argue that what is considered the identity of “apple” is in the realm of information and not intrinsic to the object, why what is “the ship of Theseus” is not something intrinsic to the physical object.

You are really completely missing the point of the second portion of the comment though, which was specifically addressing your claim that the level of information is an “unnecessary and artificial distinction.” I am trying to illustrate how the level of information in necessary and far from artificial.

I’ll try a little bit more -

The essential reality of Moby Dick, the level of it as an object that matters … is the information patterns. That essential reality is the same if that information is in a hardcover or a paperback, large print or small, one font or another, or even between stored electronically or on paper.

This is far from an unnecessary and artificial distinction; it is with many important implications (inclusive of the ones that fascinate so many so much that we have such interests in the themes of Black Mirror and Westworld). Is the particular physical substrate the information is being processed on or within the only level of reality that matters, or is the pattern of information processing a necessary and real distinction even if the substrate that it occurs on varies?

I would maintain that the properties of “you” feeling whatever you feel, thinking whatever you think, be they numbers or fear or ideal circles, are properties emergent of patterns of information processing that happen to occur on one particular physical substrate but could be just as much the same on another substrate, and that the information processing impacts and modifies the physical substrate as it processes.

Coming to WordMan’s latest query - from the perspective of what we perceive … all that we receive is information in the form of noisy signals and from that we filter signal from noise and create versions of reality inside our information processing minds, creating an experienced perceived reality. In terms of our perceived realities information is the only reality realm.

Yes! That is what I am after!

Yeah, I have tried noodling that, but I keep coming up with stuff like Intent, your suggestion which I asserted represents a blending of aspects of the Big 3.

Hmm - could these Dimensions be analogous to Primary Colors? Is there any use in that mental model? There are a core set - I assert 3 for now - and every other sub-category is a blend of those? Hmm - in that mental model, are there equivalents to Black and White?

[QUOTE=DSeid]
Coming to WordMan’s latest query - from the perspective of what we perceive … all that we receive is information in the form of noisy signals and from that we filter signal from noise and create versions of reality inside our information processing minds, creating an experienced perceived reality. In terms of our perceived realities information is the only reality realm.
[/QUOTE]

Oooooo, interesting. So is that like Pragmatism, where we are only able to consider what our senses perceive?

I disagree strongly that we are patterns of information independent of our fleshy substrates. The brain is not a computer, and our minds are not software. To be exactly “me”, any substrate would also have to have all of my memories, my instinctive behaviours, all of my autonomic nerve responses, just the right mix of hormones, hell, probably exactly the same intestinal faunal assemblages - in other words, an exact copy of my physical self.

Well first off I do not know enough about pragmatism (like virtually nothing) to make an informed compare contrast (and it sounds more like the definition of “empiricism” to me), but no, not that we are only able to consider what our senses perceive. We are only able to consider what our minds can conceive. To a highly significant degree there is overlap because our minds our evolved to deal with that which our senses perceive (and the senses we have are tuned how they are because such had salience to our fitness outcomes) but using that cognitive apparatus we can imagine lots that is not in our direct sensory experience. Our systems endogenously create information as well, and not just at the level of immediate sensory perception. We impose pattern recognition, often to our advantage, but sometimes we create patterns out of randomness.

As to the general discussion you are trying to have here, remember that our past discussion had been regarding Spinoza. To him all of reality was one infinite substance and had two “attributes” - “Thought” (which in more modern phrasing can be called “information” which includes “ideas”) and “Extension” (which in more modern phrasing is the physical substance/“stuff”) and both with multiple “modes”. The concept that is key here for this thread is that both are “attributes” of the same thing, at the same time, at all times, and the same thing can be considered at the level of either attribute with equal validity.

Spinoza, as we have previously discussed together, is a pretty heady slog, and he does extend this to the level of the infinite mode as well in which the universe/all of reality is called God (hence he is a pantheist) and in the “Thought” Attribute is considered as the Infinite Intellect and in the “Extension” Attribute is “Motion and Rest” of all stuff. And well if Infinite Intellect can be encompassed by the “Thought” Attribute then I’d think numbers would be! :slight_smile:
MrDibble, you will I am sure disagree with what I more precisely actually said as well as with what you are apparently thinking I said but let me make the distinction anyway.

I tried to phrase carefully and did not say that “you” are the patterns of information processing but that “the properties of ‘you’ feeling whatever you feel, thinking whatever you think, be they numbers or fear or ideal circles, are properties emergent of patterns of information processing.”

The distinction may seem fine to you but it is meaningful.

Indeed “you” are a complete conglomerate of more properties than your thoughts and feelings alone. And the exact manner that you process information indeed includes the impact of your instinctive behaviors (algorithms and rules we are both born with and wired to unavoidably develop in response to inputs that we in almost all circumstances will experience), your memories (that the silliness you linked to says do not exist), and the contributions of your complete body to the information processing, not the brain alone.

Current computers and our minds (which again is inclusive of more than our brains and much more than our conscious minds) are not processing information in the same way. (If anything the analogy-making has generally been more productive going from what we do know of human mind information processing to developing more intelligent machines than from the trying to impose computer processing metaphors onto the function of mind and how it processes information; the former created, for example, AlphaGo.)

Reproducing the exact patterns of human information processing on a different (nonbiological) substrate may never occur (or might). We may never understand which aspects of information processing result those emergent properties. Or Hofstadter may be onto something and eventually we will be able to deduce from an analysis of the patterns of information processing whether an other intelligent behaving entity, be it alien or artificial, is likely also experiencing some similar sort of emergent properties. But those discussions are IMHO immaterial to this one.

I’ll read the other part of your reply later when I have more time, but I completely agree with this statement. We are not able to perceive anything directy - even our sense of touch is indirect, both at the point of contact (‘touch’ is just fields interacting with one another - although that can be argued to be irrelevant, as it’s just a description of the mechanism - but also, our senses have to communicate through our physical nervous system and the magnificent mess that is the perceptual systems embodied by our brains)

We don’t perceive anything directly, and we don’t perceive it in real time (or even in the correct sequential order, in some cases)

Sure! Absolutely! Peano and so on. If that isn’t enough, how about Surreal Numbers, based on two empty sets!

A friend of mine, in college, had a prof who argued that. Nothing is real, save what we perceive directly.

If he looked through a microscope, he saw images. He only knew the images; He didn’t have any way to know if the bacteria in the image are real. He said he had no reason to believe in them, and so did not. Same for telescopes.

Where this (in my opinion) breaks down into stupidity is that we can test some of these images for reality, as when we X-Ray someone’s abdomen, and then actually open it up to perform appendix surgery, or when we look through a telescope at a distant landscape, and then go there, and see that the images were valid.

And repeating the earlier quote I had noted:

[QUOTE=DSeid]
Coming to WordMan’s latest query - from the perspective of what we perceive … all that we receive is information in the form of noisy signals and from that we filter signal from noise and create versions of reality inside our information processing minds, creating an experienced perceived reality. In terms of our perceived realities information is the only reality realm.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, this is helping. For some reason, the sifting of signal from noise is working for me as why the connection between Subjective and Ideal as Information should be more compelling. If we experience reality via how we filter signal, then the fact that some filter into one group or the other is part of the process.

If that is way too simplistic, and the fact that I am coming to if after much discussion about it, well, all I can say is that I am glad I started the thread.

I have also decided that a great name for a band would be Invoking Spinoza ;). Yes, at the heart of my OP was a bit of a hidden question: how come our boy Baruch only had the two categories? Why is the existence of Forms one of the earliest theories from Ancient Greece and one that has relevance today, but is not distinctly represented in Spinoza? And since Spinoza pointed out that Thought/Info and Extension/The Physical are coincident yet distinct manifestations of the same “infinite substance,” his model would allow for the possibility of other distinct manifestations - it is all part of God. So why aren’t Forms simply considered a separate manifestation of the infinite. ???

So yeah, a bit of a slog, so I tried to keep it simple and stay open minded. Rather than focus on the distinction of Ideals only or my Spinoza-specific questions, I wanted to start by seeing if I was even coming at the topic reasonably to begin with.

It feels like I am but I need to think about this stuff. I wasn’t accounting for Humans being the measure of all things as I was noodling before. Or correctly invoking Spinoza.

FYI, here is the Spinoza thread: Spinoza's God: what is his model and why don't we hear about it more commonly? - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board

It breaks down into stupidity because even when you’re looking straight at something, there’s an imaging process involved, in your eye. The logical end of your friend’s argument is in fact that nothing in the outside world is real, because there isn’t a single damn thing in the physical world that we do truly perceive ‘directly’.

In fact, the only things we could argue that we do perceive directly, are the things that happen entirely inside our own perception - dreams, hallucinations, etc - so your friend’s argument actually has the opposite conclusion to the one he thought it does.

I think the answer is historic context. The following is my best understanding and others who know more of Plato and Descartes are encouraged to chime in.

Descartes was to no small degree responding to the Platonic concepts of Ideas and Spinoza was instead responding to Descartes’ concepts.

Descartes had already removed the transcendent Platonic Ideal forms from his ontogeny and conceptualized Reality as being of two substances, as being of a dual nature: Extension (the physical, the body) and Thought (the mind), each with modes. Descartes placed God as being of another substance, transcendent of the rest of reality. And he placed Thought and Extension as being of different independent substances.

That dualistic Cartesian framework was the philosophical state of the art that Spinoza was working from. Put simply enough that I can understand it, the already discussed conceptualization of Thought and Extension as differing attributes of the same substance and God as not transcendent but immanent of that same substance and having the same attributes (albeit that the infinite Divine Intellect is ineffable and incomprehensible to our more finite modes).

I think …

Ah, helpful. Let me ponder this.