# Phish sings Avenu Malkenu **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2026, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024 "2026-09-12T22:46:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/1 "2026-09-12T22:46:41Z")
Today is Rosh Hashanah. It’s also the Sabbath. And our rabbi said that we don’t sing avenu malkenu on the Sabbath (for reasons). First I’ve heard that, we certainly have in the past. I mean, I’m sure there’s a tradition of not singing it, too, but that’s new to my synagogue. Or… Maybe I really associate it with Yom Kippur and just didn’t notice when they skipped it on Rosh Hashanah? Anyway, what intrigued is that he then went on to say, sure, you can listen to the Barbara Streisand version, or to Phish, but nothing beats hearing the cantor singing it live, so come to tomorrow’s service. But i thought, Phish? Are they Jewish? Anyway, I looked it up: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/az1dEW2LTIw/hqdefault.jpg "PHISH : Avenu Malkenu : {4K Ultra HD} : Alpine Valley : East Troy, WI : 7/14/2019") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az1dEW2LTIw) Honestly, i prefer the version we usually sing, which feels more energetic and heartfelt. But this was pretty good. But… Can anyone tell my _why_ Phish sings Avenu Malkenu? (It’s a traditional Jewish prayer. The title means, “our father, our king”, and it’s directed towards God. It says, “we’re not great, but please be merciful to us anyway”, and is traditional during the high holy days, when metaphorically God is writing in the book of life what will happen next year. You can hear the last verse here > **[AVINU MALKEINU | Hebrew Songs](https://www.hebrewsongs.com/?song=avinumalkeinu)** > > AVINU MALKEINU is on HebrewSongs. Search Hebrew Songs for all your favourite songs. Hebrew songs transliterated and translated into English as well as Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and other languages, by volunteers worldwide. Or read a poem inspired by the full prayer, lightly updated, here [Avinu Malkeinu - Jewish Poetry](https://jewishpoetry.net/avinu-malkeinu/) ) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/2 "2026-09-12T23:22:05Z")
Two of the band members are Jewish, the drummer and the bassist. I recommend this Reddit thread, which recommends a book on the topic: https://embed.reddit.com/r/phish/comments/16bn49x/this_is_your_song_too_phish_and_contemporary/?embed=true&ref_source=embed&ref=share ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2026, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/3 "2026-09-13T06:03:44Z")
The traditional melody for “Avinu Malkeinu” already has something of an “exotic surf rock” feel, à la Dick Dale’s “Miserlou” (which was itself based on a Middle Eastern folk song that uses a similar scale). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2026, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/4 "2026-09-13T06:38:03Z")
It’s been part of their regular repertoire for decades and, as mentioned, two of the four members are Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2026, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/5 "2026-09-13T10:46:34Z")
So, one of the Jewish members said, “hey, there’s this nice melody i hear at Temple every fall, i think we could do that, too”? Do they tell their fans what the words mean? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2026, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/6 "2026-09-13T11:10:57Z")
Recycling a maqam/scale/mode/melody is a time-honored tradition in music. However, if they are covering religious songs then that is what they are doing. You can imagine marginal cases like hypothetically referencing Beethoven’s Ode to Joy. I have a couple of Phish albums with stuff on them like “The Okipa Ceremony” so it is not limited to Judaism. (Though, there are not really any lyrics per se for that one). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2026, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/7 "2026-09-13T17:02:43Z")
I’ve seen the band a lot of times. They’re just weird. They are the biggest second generation jam band (Grateful Dead are the patriarchs, Goose is in the third generation spot). They are around 60 years old and have been a band since the late 80s. They probably just started doing it. It’s not easy to explain unless you understand jam band culture. There’s no need for an explanation. Extreme jam band fans are nerds and know all of the lore. In addition, Jewish people are hugely over represented in music world fandom in general and more so in the jam band world in particular. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2026, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/8 "2026-09-13T22:15:41Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > They are the biggest second generation jam band (Grateful Dead are the patriarchs, Goose is in the third generation spot). I didn’t realize that. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![OldeFattBugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OldeFattBugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldeFattBugger)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/9 "2026-09-14T17:44:52Z")
As someone who knows the music of the Grateful Dead pretty extensively and the music of Phish to some extent (I saw Phish live for the 1st time in 1993 at U.C. Berkeley’s Greek Theatre and several times after that until I finally acknowledged to myself that their insipid, vapid, pretentious “Inside Joke”, “Aren’t We So Very Clever” lyrics would always be a non-starter for me) I never heard the Grateful Dead referred to as a Jam Band before 1995, while Jerry Garcia was still alive. To me, "Jam Band’ (at least originally) seemed like a dismissive insult to describe second generation acts like Phish, Widespread Panic, Blues Traveler and a few others who formed in the 1980’s or early 90’s while the Dead were still playing, I think as a pointed descriptor implying a lack of songwriting quality, which at least in Phish’s case seemed more than apt. To me, the Grateful Dead as a collective were some of most important, most inspired and most influential SONGWRITERS in all of American musical history, who also just so happened to be some of the most brilliant instrumental musicians (in particualr J. Garcia and Phil Lesh) of their time. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/10 "2026-09-14T18:10:47Z")
I saw Jerry around 75 times starting in 1987 and I’ve seen Phish around twenty times over the last twelve years or so. I like Phish ok. They are fantastic musicians and some of their songs are beautiful. Not like Hunter or Barlow songs that will be known for generations of course. Like you, I find the self referential inside joke shit annoying. Comparing them in any way to the Dead is a mistake. They are two different animals. They sell out entire runs at Madison Square Garden so you should give them some props. Phish hate is so 2002. To search for mentions of them just to bag on them is just weird. Widespread Panic or even String Cheese Incident are more akin to them. Also Goose who are just kids starting out and filling amphitheaters and have people touring with them. There are many more who aren’t very well known and grinding it out. Spafford is a personal favorite of mine. And Infamous Stringdusters. I go to over 150 concerts every year. Jam bands, blues, bluegrass, jazz and funk mostly but also acoustic Americana and a little Indie. I don’t think I need to be lectured on live music. I first heard the term jam band in the late 90s as well and this is honestly the first time I have heard anyone saying it was pejorative. Jam bands take the jazz tradition of extensive free form jams with solos and apply it to other genres. They are known way more for their live performances and the studio albums are secondary if anyone cares about them at all. The concerts follow the format of two hour plus sets with around eight to ten songs and a long encore. Two and a half hours of music. More or less. There are no rules. The Dead and the Allmans invented it. Others took it up and put their own spin on things. Live music is my life. There are genres and bands that don’t speak to me. It doesn’t mean they are bad. I just don’t bother with them. ---
**Author:** ![OldeFattBugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OldeFattBugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldeFattBugger)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/11 "2026-09-14T20:27:21Z")
Small world, as I also saw my first Dead show in 1987, at a small ski resort outside of Salt Lake City, and then went on to see them an additional 150+ times (actually a total 161 G.D. shows, plus 25 or so Jerry Garcia Band gigs) until Jerry’s passing in Aug. 1995. Apparently like you, live music (and the subsequent travel involved in seeing my favorite performers) has been the chief passions in my life for the past 40 years. I still see a bit of live music, specifically this year I have seen David Byrne twice, Eric Clapton, Wilco twice and have tickets to Bob Dylan in November, but these performers are all widely acclaimed for the quality of their songwriting, whereas I still think "Jamband’ sounds dismissive to me, even when it is in my opinion deserved. I suppose my point was that I would not give serious weight to the opinion of anyone who would call the Grateful Dead a Jamband, as that sounds to me like calling Shakespeare a guy who wrote stories. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/12 "2026-09-14T20:48:28Z")
If we are talking about seeing a performance featuring at least one member of the Dead, It’s well over 200 shows and probably over 1000 jam band performances of some kind or another. The bulk of my friends are live music freaks and of course we nerd out about live music. I loved Furthur in particular and I think Mayer is an atrocity and a poser. You want to die on that hill, you be you. I have never heard any of the hundreds of people I have met and in many cased befriended over the decades express that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2026, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/13 "2026-09-15T13:09:46Z")
Maybe you two wookies actually know each other irl? 😜 d&r ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2026, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/14 "2026-09-15T13:11:10Z")
@Thing.Fish , now that it’s not New Year’s Day, this question seems up your alley. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2026, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/15 "2026-09-15T13:28:13Z")
I think the answer for that specific song is they have Jewish members, but it’s also the type of band they are. Bands like Phish, WSP, or “jam bands” make their money touring and doing live shows. Their fans are loyal and go to multiple shows a year. You can’t just rotate 20 songs or the fans and the band would get bored. You need to inject more “jazz” (variance) into it. With that in mind, they’d have several hundred songs in rotation, with over a thousand played at any given point. They play anything and everything. I think this culture is going to lead to them playing odd songs. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2026, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/16 "2026-09-15T18:13:54Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Maybe you two wookies actually know each other irl? 😜 > > d&r Haha! We are everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2026, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/17 "2026-09-15T18:17:59Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Bands like Phish, WSP, or “jam bands” make their money touring and doing live shows. Their fans are loyal and go to multiple shows a year. You can’t just rotate 20 songs or the fans and the band would get bored. You need to inject more “jazz” (variance) into it. Exactly. There would be a riot if a song was repeated in a three show run. In a tour of say twenty shows, no song will be played more than two or three times and every show will have a song or two that was only played that one time on the tour. There’s also the concept of bustouts. On occasion a song will be played for the first time in like ten years and that’s a huge deal, especially if it’s an old favorite that’s been on hiatus. A lot of people are just enjoying the groove or, sadly, just hammered on something but a lot of fans keep track of that shit. It’s very nerdy. The Dead went over five years without playing Dark Star and when they finally did people lost their minds. Phish had a similar thing with Fluffhead. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2026, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/18 "2026-09-15T19:10:39Z")
Not really a Phish phollower (I’m more aligned with Jews for Jerry) and didn’t know about this song until this thread, but thanks for thinking of me! ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2026, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/19 "2026-09-15T20:20:55Z")
Weird, my first Dead show was also in 1987; October 3 at Shoreline Amphitheater. I saw them around 100 times before Jerry died. Nowadays I’m very much into String Cheese Incident and also like JRAD, Pigeons Playing Ping Pong, moe., Galactic, Widespread Panic and a host of smaller jam bands like Eggy, Daniel Donato’s Cosmic Country, etc. Never really much cared for Phish though. The lyrics are mostly just stupid and I just don’t care for Trey’s playing. I admit to a certain unreasonable distaste for him because of the way he ruined the Fare Thee Well shows back in 2015. This thread reminds me of moe.'s rendition of Hava Nagila: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Y2UQm_2y5QY/maxresdefault.jpg "Havah Negilah (Live)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2UQm_2y5QY) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2026, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024/20 "2026-09-15T20:28:14Z")
I have seen every band on your list multiple times. I mentioned Spafford upthread. Do not miss them. Donanto and Cosmic Country is one of my all time favorites. They keep getting better. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phish-sings-avenu-malkenu/1033024.md?page=2)